(This is a strange bug report, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I tried to have a conversation over email with toolchain@gentoo.org, the owner of the bug, but only got extremely frustrating and terse non-responses. The experience is similar to talking to a wall. I could not even be told what component a bug of this variety would be appropriate for.) Here's the "conversation" I had over email with toolchain@gentoo.org that explains the issue regarding bug 147155: ----- From: whereami@gmail.com Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 12:18 AM To: toolchain@gentoo.org Hi, I was wondering if anybody pays attention to this email address anymore. I'm asking because bug 147155 is assigned to toolchain@gentoo.org, and has been open for nearly 4 years, three of those with a well-documented diagnosis. More recently (4 months ago), a commit-ready solution was posted to the bug. And still, no response from anyone that could actually submit it. This bug clearly affects a significant number of people based on the growing CC list. I no longer use the software in question, but I'm getting tired of receiving emails about it. But I don't want to remove myself from CC because I want to see if it *ever* gets fixed. I have the urge to get profane, but I'm going to find out if you exist first. Maybe there's some reasonable explanation. Thanks, d# https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147155 ----- From: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:36 AM To: whereami@gmail.com Cc: toolchain@gentoo.org reports go to bugzilla, not the alias -mike ----- From: whereami@gmail.com Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 3:15 PM To: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> Cc: toolchain@gentoo.org On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:36 AM, Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> wrote: > reports go to bugzilla, not the alias > -mike Hi mike, I'm confused by your rather terse response. As you can see, the bug in question has already been reported, 4 years ago. I gave a bug number and a link to it. Here's a link to the bug again: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147155 Or are you saying I should report a bug of the form "Bug 147155 needs attention"? What category would I put that under? Somehow I suspect it would be closed as a duplicate. Please feel free to use more words than you think are necessary to explain it to me. Perhaps you can understand why I'm going outside of bugzilla to try to get a response. It's been 3 years since anyone with an @gentoo.org address has replied to the bug. This would be fine if the bug was vague or technically difficult to resolve. However, there is a known solution to the bug. I know your time is valuable, but I think this needs maybe an hour or two of your time, and would help out a number of people. d# ----- From: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org> Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 3:42 PM To: whereami@gmail.com Cc: toolchain@gentoo.org support does not occur through the alias -mike -----
*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 147155 ***
No, this is not a duplicate. That bug is about an issue in crosstools. This bug is about why that bug has not gotten any attention in 3 years, even though it has a known solution. Yeah, it's a little meta, but nobody will reply to the real bug, so here we are. I think it's a completely reasonable request. Please try to see it from my perspective; I've tried to see it from yours, but I cannot comprehend a 3 year delay on a bug with a known, committable solution that affects a number of users. Please use some words, don't just change the status. I'm tired of brick walls.
Whom do you expect us to assign this bug to?
(In reply to comment #3) > Whom do you expect us to assign this bug to? Assign it to DevRel/UserRel or QA. I'm affected, too. If toolchain gives a damn, i would like to see this fact documented. Michael
To summarise: Mike explained to you twice to work on the bug through the bug tracker, and not mail to the toolchain@ alias about bug reports, or support issues for that matter.
jer: Why should we continue to try to work on the bug through the bug tracker when there is an established 3-year history of complete and utter silence on the part of toolchain@ ? Therefore I attempted to start a discussion via the mail alias, and got an extremely terse and unhelpful response. I asked for clarification, and again pleaded for an explanation, trying to express my frustration. But I got another extremely terse and unhelpful response, but it was at least clear that I needed to do something of some sort on the bug tracker. What exactly? I have no idea, since mike could not even take the time to answer my specific question of what kind of bug I should open. So, I opened this bug. And *still*, everyone that might have any ability to commit a fix for the bug absolutely refuses to even discuss the matter. I'm not even getting "damn, we're really busy, we don't have time to look at your stupid little bug", let alone "we see that someone has posted a solution, but it has XYZ problem with it". So, CCing devrel Please don't call this a duplicate again unless you decide to make real progress on 147155.
stop wasting our time. if you have a complaint, contact userrel. *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 147155 ***
Very well, userrel it is. I can't assign this bug to them, so I'll just CC them. Or is that not the proper procedure? I'd follow the proper procedure if you would tell me. I'm sorry if you not telling me the proper procedure has resulted in a waste of your time, but I'm not sure what you expect. userrel: I think I've sufficiently described my complaint above.
Pls stop reopening this bug, really. I'm NOT a gentoo developer (just an occasional contributor, but mainly an happy gentoo user) but i confirm, you are wasting developers time this way! If you really want to help, study the solution they posted on the related bug. If that fix is still not committed to the main three there is a reason i think. Whatever the reason is complaing about the fix is still missing in the tree is useless. 1) no gentoo dev said that solution is valid 2) touching binutils buildsystem is not something you they can do easly. binutils is a critical system component Don't get me wrong i'm not wrathful, but there are a couple of really easy fix described (symlink, binutils patch...) so a user hitting this bug (like me 3 days ago) can fix it in 5 minutes. When the problem will be studied the fix will be committed to the main portage tree. Last but not the least, you are welcome to become a gentoo developer. There is to much work for the actual team (at least for some areas) out there to do. Fixing the avr toolchain is really NOT a priority. Happy holidays
I'm reassigning this bug to the userrel team as the user has asked userrel to look at his case. I need to look at the mentioned bug before I can understand what's going on. I'll add a comment here afterwards.
Hi, it's been 4 months... Is that not enough time to review the bug? Can we get some sort of resolution?
And more than a year later we are still no closer to a resolution. UserRel, can we get a statement from you?
Bumping this, as it is still an issue, and no upstream response even after other devs have commented on both of these. I'm tempted to include Mike Frysinger in bug 147155 or even this one, since he's the one that has been comitting to the Crossdev git recently.
Since UserRel is not responsive, I suggest to escalate this to Council. There is a Council meeting next Tuesday. Please check the gentoo-project mailing list for details.
(In reply to comment #15) > Since UserRel is not responsive, I suggest to escalate this to Council. > There is a Council meeting next Tuesday. Please check the gentoo-project > mailing list for details. The User Relations team has contacted both toolchain and Mike a few times about this bug. The issue here is that this is a known bug, but Mike isn't willing to fix it with a hack. He wants to fix this eventually, but this isn't high priority to him and no one else has stepped up to work on a proper fix to this bug. We're not happy that this issue has persisted for so long, but as the User Relations team members that have looked at this bug don't have a solution for it either, all we can do is ask for the affected users to use the symlink if that works for them and urge Mike, the toolchain team or anyone interested in this issues to look for a solution for it.
(In reply to comment #16) > The User Relations team has contacted both toolchain and Mike a few times > about this bug. > The issue here is that this is a known bug, but Mike isn't willing to fix it > with a hack. He wants to fix this eventually, In my experience, "eventually" is a synonym for "never". > but this isn't high priority > to him and no one else has stepped up to work on a proper fix to this bug. > We're not happy that this issue has persisted for so long, but as the User > Relations team members that have looked at this bug don't have a solution > for it either, all we can do is ask for the affected users to use the > symlink if that works for them and urge Mike, the toolchain team or anyone > interested in this issues to look for a solution for it. Here's the problem: Several people on the bug have offered patches. They have only been met with silence. Not with "I don't like this solution and here's why and here's how it could be better". Just silence. Mike has not posted a single comment on the bug since 2007 (2007! over 5 years ago!), and that was not constructive. He has not posted any feedback about the proposed solutions. He has not offered any hint about what a "proper fix" would look like, let alone that the proposed solutions are not "proper". We are not in Mike's head. How is anybody supposed to know what's proper if we don't get any feedback? Mike has not engaged in any discussion about the bug whatsoever. We want to work with Mike. He hasn't shown that he wants to work with us. The issue the lack of communication. The updated summary of this bug (not my original summary) is telling: "isn't responded to satisfactorily", "do not want to discuss". We would not be here if Mike (or anybody else!) had given some hint that there was a "proper" fix and what it might look like, but nobody had tried to implement it, even if it still isn't fixed. We would have no one to blame but ourselves (it is an open-source project after all). But we *have* tried to fix it. We've tried the proper channels (bugzilla). When that failed, we tried other channels (toolchain@). When that failed we tried escalating to the community (this bug). And that is still failing. And apparently the point is still lost on you. I find it ironic that it's been a year and a half since the previous update from userrel on this bug, even though there seems to have been activity in the background. It makes me wonder if this non-communication issue is systemic to the whole Gentoo project!
(In reply to comment #16) > (In reply to comment #15) > > Since UserRel is not responsive, I suggest to escalate this to Council. > > There is a Council meeting next Tuesday. Please check the gentoo-project > > mailing list for details. > > The User Relations team has contacted both toolchain and Mike a few times > about this bug. > The issue here is that this is a known bug, but Mike isn't willing to fix it > with a hack. He wants to fix this eventually, but this isn't high priority > to him and no one else has stepped up to work on a proper fix to this bug. That nobody has stepped up is an insult to the user dynamotwain@aim.com. He posted a detailed analysis of the problem and even posted a patch. What whereami said in the previous hits the nail on the head. Mike doesn't seem to be a team player in the sense that he is not even willing to comment on other peoples analysis/patches. You can't expect other people to step up with a solution if they a) have already provided a solution and b) that solution wasn't even worth a reaction. Did User Relations even read the bug?
(In reply to comment #17) > I find it ironic that it's been a year and a half since the previous update > from userrel on this bug, even though there seems to have been activity in > the background. It makes me wonder if this non-communication issue is > systemic to the whole Gentoo project! This wasn't just about "lack of communication". It was also about limited resources. (In reply to comment #18) > (In reply to comment #16) > > (In reply to comment #15) > > > Since UserRel is not responsive, I suggest to escalate this to Council. > > > There is a Council meeting next Tuesday. Please check the gentoo-project > > > mailing list for details. > > > > The User Relations team has contacted both toolchain and Mike a few times > > about this bug. > > The issue here is that this is a known bug, but Mike isn't willing to fix it > > with a hack. He wants to fix this eventually, but this isn't high priority > > to him and no one else has stepped up to work on a proper fix to this bug. > > That nobody has stepped up is an insult to the user dynamotwain@aim.com. He > posted a detailed analysis of the problem and even posted a patch. When I stated that no one stepped up to fix this, I didn't mean that no user tried to help getting this fixed. What I meant was that no one inside Gentoo stepped up to fix this issue. There was also no one outside of Gentoo that got through the job of joining Gentoo to fix this issue. By this I don't mean that joining Gentoo is the only option for users nor should it become a requirement. However, users should realize this is also an option and that relying on Gentoo developers, sometimes may not be enough. > What whereami said in the previous hits the nail on the head. Mike doesn't > seem to be a team player in the sense that he is not even willing to comment > on other peoples analysis/patches. Mike does a lot of work on / for Gentoo. He, like the other developers, is a volunteer. Most (all?) of us got in because we wanted to do some work and felt the "itch" to fix some issues. While we try to accommodate users' requests when we can, at times we either can't or think their requests or solutions aren't the best option. In this case, its clear this issue is not high priority to Mike. I would prefer he had replied in the bug about this, but I understand he doesn't have unlimited time / will and that not all issues interest him the same. Furthermore, Mike is / was not the only toolchain member during these 4 years and I haven't seen anyone else taking care of this bug or replying to our inquiries. I, for one, as a Gentoo developer only got involved in this bug from the User Relations angle. I'm sorry that I didn't got this fixed for our users, but I wouldn't know how to start working on this. I assume all other developers that noticed the bug and didn't fix it, also didn't do it because they didn't know how to fix it or because it didn't interest them. So the fact this issue isn't fixed doesn't mean we don't want to get it fixed. Unfortunately, we don't have unlimited time, will or knowledge that would allow us to fix all bugs and address all requests by users. > You can't expect other people to step up with a solution if they a) have > already provided a solution and b) that solution wasn't even worth a > reaction. > > Did User Relations even read the bug? I'm petty sure both Alec and me read this bug a few times.
> (In reply to comment #18) > > (In reply to comment #16) > > > (In reply to comment #15) > > > > Since UserRel is not responsive, I suggest to escalate this to Council. > > > > There is a Council meeting next Tuesday. Please check the gentoo-project > > > > mailing list for details. > > > > > > The User Relations team has contacted both toolchain and Mike a few times > > > about this bug. > > > The issue here is that this is a known bug, but Mike isn't willing to fix it > > > with a hack. He wants to fix this eventually, but this isn't high priority > > > to him and no one else has stepped up to work on a proper fix to this bug. > > > > That nobody has stepped up is an insult to the user dynamotwain@aim.com. He > > posted a detailed analysis of the problem and even posted a patch. > > When I stated that no one stepped up to fix this, I didn't mean that no user > tried to help getting this fixed. What I meant was that no one inside Gentoo > stepped up to fix this issue. Indeed that was not the case. It seems crossdev is Mike's pet project. > There was also no one outside of Gentoo that got through the job of joining > Gentoo to fix this issue. By this I don't mean that joining Gentoo is the > only option for users nor should it become a requirement. However, users > should realize this is also an option and that relying on Gentoo developers, > sometimes may not be enough. I wonder, what would have happened if somebody actually tried to do that! I mean, he would probably have to modify toolchain.eclass, would have to patch the binutils.ebuild, or patch binutils itself. And I can't imagine that all that wouldn't have to be discussed with the Gentoo toolchain team, which Mike is a part of. And I can't imagine that "the new guy" would have the permission to mess with such sensitive parts of gentoo on his own. > > What whereami said in the previous hits the nail on the head. Mike doesn't > > seem to be a team player in the sense that he is not even willing to comment > > on other peoples analysis/patches. > > Mike does a lot of work on / for Gentoo. He, like the other developers, is a > volunteer. Most (all?) of us got in because we wanted to do some work and > felt the "itch" to fix some issues. While we try to accommodate users' > requests when we can, at times we either can't or think their requests or > solutions aren't the best option. I'm part of an open source project myself. Oh, and I do it in my free time, of course. If somebody requests a feature or a bugfix and is willing to contribute, and I'm not happy with his solution, then I have to guide him through the process of coming up with a better solution. That takes some time - but less than writing the solution myself. Now Mike didn't have the spare time during the last years (like 20 minutes or something) to comment on the proposed solution or (like 1 minute or something) to suggest that someone should probably become a Gentoo developer himself to get the task of his back completely. Anything you said so far doesn't justify for the complete lack of communication. > In this case, its clear this issue is not high priority to Mike. But it's important to us. > I would > prefer he had replied in the bug about this, but I understand he doesn't > have unlimited time He doesn't have that minute to mention he wont fix it and that somebody else should probably step up to fix the issue? Meh ... not a good excuse. Also your attempt to defend Mike just makes things worse. Now I have to imagine Mike at work, where his Boss hands task over task to him, but he simply hasn't got the time to tell his Boss that he hasn't the time to solve all the tasks. (Not trying to insult Mike, just trying to point out how absurd your argument is. Literally, you suggest that Mike doesn't have the time to say that he hasn't got the time to communicate.)
(In reply to comment #19) > (In reply to comment #17) > > I find it ironic that it's been a year and a half since the previous update > > from userrel on this bug, even though there seems to have been activity in > > the background. It makes me wonder if this non-communication issue is > > systemic to the whole Gentoo project! > > This wasn't just about "lack of communication". It was also about limited > resources. This is a straw-man argument. I appreciate that time is limited. Mine is too, of course. But if there was activity and thought going into this bug by you or to bug 147155 by Mike (or another dev--I really don't mean to pick on Mike too much), as you seem to have implied there has, it was not communicated. Mike (or toolchain@) clearly has opinions about the proposed fixes. He has not communicated them. He already spent the resources thinking about it, so how can this be about limited resources? He only failed to communicate his thoughts, which left the rest of us frustrated and annoyed. How long does it take to write a little note saying "thanks for trying, I looked at it, and I don't like it because X, my thoughts are Y"? After 5 years, and users clamoring for a fix (okay, I exaggerate a bit), is it still not worth 5 minutes to write it down?
Hi, Sorry I have been a bit busy as I relocated to Germany recently. I originally received the report, read the bug, and had a chat with Mike (this was weeks ago.) I then basically told Jorge to update the bug (threw him under the bus really.) Sorry Jorge. One thing I would like to note is that it is not that UserRel does not get the frustration expressed here. It is a frustrating situation. I think the end result though is that we are unlikely to resolve it to your satisfaction (always important to set expectations.) I want to call out a few things in particular. 1) Being terse in email is not something UserRel cares about. If a developer is explicitly insulting you, harassing you, etc, then that is a problem and we can look into it. 2) Not responding to users sucks, but it happens. I think there is much perceived malice that is not intended. 3) The workaround is evident and appears to work for most users. 4) People commenting on the bug seem to be under the impression that Mike is obligated to respond to email / bugs / critique patches / apply patches. I want to make it clear that no obligation exists. I will ask Mike to provide feedback on the patches in 147155 since that seems to be what most folks are clamoring for as a response. I can't force him to reply, and I can't force him to fix the bug, nor to apply the proposed patches. Other members of the developer community are free to attempt to fix the bug. I only urge them to be careful and not break anything as I'm sure toolchain.eclass and binutils are fragile creatures. -A
(In reply to comment #22) > Hi, > > Sorry I have been a bit busy as I relocated to Germany recently. I > originally received the report, read the bug, and had a chat with Mike (this > was weeks ago.) I then basically told Jorge to update the bug (threw him > under the bus really.) Sorry Jorge. One thing I would like to note is that > it is not that UserRel does not get the frustration expressed here. It is a > frustrating situation. I think the end result though is that we are unlikely > to resolve it to your satisfaction (always important to set expectations.) Thank you very much for acknowledging our frustration. It's a much better than the defensive responses received thus far. > > I want to call out a few things in particular. > > 1) Being terse in email is not something UserRel cares about. If a developer > is explicitly insulting you, harassing you, etc, then that is a problem and > we can look into it. Very well. The terseness was what got my ire up in the first place, though. > > 2) Not responding to users sucks, but it happens. I think there is much > perceived malice that is not intended. "Malice" is too strong a word for what I feel. "Apathy" is more apt. It's probably not intended, but apathy rarely is. > 3) The workaround is evident and appears to work for most users. That helps, but the software is still fundamentally broken. This is no obscure, hard to trigger bug. It prevents the toolchain from working for 100% of its users--which I suppose are not numerous, but still. The workaround may only be evident after a Google search. > 4) People commenting on the bug seem to be under the impression that Mike is > obligated to respond to email / bugs / critique patches / apply patches. I > want to make it clear that no obligation exists. I'm sorry if I gave that impression, though my opinion is nuanced enough that I could see how I may have. I don't think he is obligated. To risk beating a dead horse, let me explain: As a volunteer yourself, you aren't obliged to respond to this bug--but you did. Why? My guess is it's because the title of "Gentoo developer" carries some responsibility to the Gentoo community. We have gone through considerable work to offer solutions, in good faith that someone with the power to do so would acknowledge our effort and commit it or tell us why not. Open-source is supposed to be a collaboration, but so far only the users on the bug have made any apparent effort to collaborate to fix the bug. Mike is not obliged to respond, but I think he should feel some responsibility to do so. The age, severity, and number of affected users of the bug add up to what I would expect would be considerable pressure to fix the bug. Apparently nobody with the power and skills to fix the bug sees it that way, which leads to our frustration. Mike seems to be the only one to fit that bill, making him the unfortunate target of our frustration. > I will ask Mike to provide feedback on the patches in 147155 since that > seems to be what most folks are clamoring for as a response. I can't force > him to reply, and I can't force him to fix the bug, nor to apply the > proposed patches. Thank you. I hope you can convey to him the level and manner of frustration he is inducing in his willing, would-be collaborators. > > Other members of the developer community are free to attempt to fix the bug. > I only urge them to be careful and not break anything as I'm sure > toolchain.eclass and binutils are fragile creatures. I believe Sven adequately described the pitfalls of this supposed freedom with respect to a requirement to collaborate with toolchain@ in order to submit such a fix. Thank you for your thoughtful consideration of this issue.
I believe there is nothing left to do here. -A
