I posted a few months ago in response to a sticky thread, to offer help as requested. My only question was about whether we could collaborate on the forum as the original post mentioned. Since I got no reply over a couple of months, I withdrew and was about to ask the mods to unsticky the thread, since it was clearly dead. When I went to do so, another user had posted so I left it. Thereafter cokehabit posted questioning why anything would have changed since his attempts to contribute. There was a bit of light-hearted discussion, not involving me, then nightmorph stepped in. He maintains this was a "request for help" but in fact he spent the vast majority of his post complaining about another dev, and insulting both cokehabit's work and users in general, stating both that we were too lazy to email and that we are prone to fits of drama. None of this was necessary. He could easily have kept his off-topic opinions to himself, and not displayed such an arrogant and rude attitude. I answered politely, pointing out that cokehabit has contributed stuff as far as many other users are concerned. (I understand he came up with the idea of overlays which are now critical to many Gentoo herds, projects and users.) Also, that the coordination between developers was hardly our problem, and that the "drama" on the Forums has only ever been about ructions in the developer community. This is the _truth_, not that the topic needed to have been brought into the thread, and I had not done so. I pointed out that we might prefer to collaborate on the forums, as I had months prior. Nightmorph then proceeded to file a report, accusing me of "blatant(ly) trolling [his] request for help to the community." This was arrant nonsense: firstly it was he who brought those issues up, and secondly he had not once bothered to post to the sticky thread, in the several months that it was at the top of the forum. (I point out here that he is a regular forum user, with over 1200 posts.) If he had wanted to coordinate this with opfer, he could have. If he had wanted to take the thread over, again he could have. Instead he chose to ignore it, and apparently only bothered to get involved to insult cokehabit (and everyone else.) His reporting of me as a "troll" when I had been involved with the thread for months, and had done nothing but politely give my pov on the points _he_ raised, stunk. It was personally motivated (he has hated me since bug 179796 so I have always stayed out of his way) _totally_ untrue, and imo an abuse of his position as a developer. This kind of attitude is the reason Gentoo has so many problems with workload. I for one have stayed away from contributing to any of the docs since bug 179796 and it is clear others have been put off by interaction with this odious individual. His behaviour is imo in violation of both the spirit and the letter of the Code of Conduct. However important his work may or may not be, however long he has been a developer, or how close he may be to the "core" of Gentoo, I hope he is subject to the same rules as everyone else. NB: I only ever posted to this thread to offer *help*. Reproducible: Always
It would be nice to CC the dev in question while you're filing a report against him. Personally I think you're exaggerating. How can Josh hijack a thread that is about GMN, the project he's a member of? It's his own (and his co-workers) thread ever since he joined GMN. After reading the thread, I didn't find nightmorph's comments inflammatory, they are just a sorrow request for more input from users. It was you who added poisonous comments about Gentoo politics and went to personal attacks on our devs (you did the same in #179796...), derailed the thread and started the whole flame. Summarising, I think it would be better and more useful if you contributed an article matching the length of this complaint to GMN instead of writing this bug. Sorry if it was harsh but the tone of your complaint demands an appropriate answer. And no, 1200 posts don't allow you to do whatever you want. You need at least 1500 for that. Keep posting. :-)
On a sidenote, Josh has hardware problems and won't be available much for the whole October. This one may take a while. http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/roll-call/devaway.xml?select=nightmorph#nightmorph
(In reply to comment #1) > It would be nice to CC the dev in question while you're filing a report against him. > Oh sorry, I've never added anyone else's CC but my own to a bug. It was not my intention to act behind his back, as you seem to be implying. > Personally I think you're exaggerating. How can Josh hijack a thread that is > about GMN, the project he's a member of? That seems like a very specious argument to me; irrespective of what the thread was about, his interjections were completely off-topic and insulting. I used the word 'hijack' as he had not bothered to post to it before in the months it was up there, and when he did he derailed it and then tried to categorise my politely worded reply, which was only in response to his post, as an "off-topic troll." > It's his own (and his co-workers) > thread ever since he joined GMN. After reading the thread, I didn't find > nightmorph's comments inflammatory, they are just a sorrow request for more > input from users. It was you who added poisonous comments about Gentoo > politics Nonsense; he was the one who complained about the users when we had been offering help. He chose to bring up "Gentoo politics" as you put it, by insulting the users from his position as a developer. Other users seemed to be stating similar things about his attitude. > and went to personal attacks on our devs (you did the same in #179796...), > derailed the thread and started the whole flame. > All I did there was try to ask dsd to clarify whether he did indeed want to downgrade the recommendation, and share my experience. I also filed a separate bug which was summarily dismissed, prompting another user to protest. In summary, I think you are much mistaken. Irrespective, this bug is not about my behaviour on 179796. It does show where the animosity might have come from though, since nightmorph was clearly attached to reiser and refused to change the handbook despite other members of docs protesting, and the kernel team agreeing that the change needed to happen. > Summarising, I think it would be better and more useful if you contributed an > article matching the length of this complaint to GMN instead of writing this > bug. > That's what I was trying to do; if you read the thread you'll see that's exactly what I had offered 2 or 3 months before nightmorph decided to wade in and insult everyone. And really: what does patronising me like that add? > Sorry if it was harsh but the tone of your complaint demands an appropriate > answer. And no, 1200 posts don't allow you to do whatever you want. You need at > least 1500 for that. Keep posting. :-) > Puhleez man, you need to read what's in front of you; the number of posts refers to nightmorph, stating that he can hardly claim not to have noticed that thread since he is such a regular user and it had been stickied for 6 months. Keep closing ranks though, that's useful ;-) > On a sidenote, Josh has hardware problems and won't be available much for the > whole October. This one may take a while. > No problem.
Unlocking for reporter and CC list. Steve, please don't remove unlocks on the bug or you won't be able to see the progress of it.
Adding userrel to the CC list
Another sidenote, per antarus' mail to aliases: if userrel people need access to this bug, you need to add everyone interested from userrel as a separate CC. CCing userrel@g.o doesn't seem to do the trick. (Adding Alec since he seems to have shown interest already. Just remove it and slap me if I'm mistaken)
Adding Ferris as well to the CC list. After looking at the forums thread and the "reiserfs bug", I think there was no CoC violation by Josh (nightmorph). Both Josh and Steve overreact about the other's comments and actions. Steve, you abused forums policy by replying to Josh's report in the original thread and not in the report thread. Besides, as Josh pointed out, he didn't reply to your comment but to George's (cokehabit). If anything, Josh seems unaware that for a few issues GWN did have a forums section to which some people contributed, including forum moderators (mark_alec sent a few articles and I sent 1 or 2). I also notice the thread in question started on Feb 27th, had 5 neutral posts in the following week and was silent until Aug 24th. All the *fun* started on October 9th after Steve's comment "...thanks for showing us the Gentoo way in action" - Steve please refrain from making such comments. Besides, no one ever told you that you had to do A or B, you presumed that by the silence. It's better to poke people and make direct questions than to presume something from their silence. Josh, I understand your frustration about the collaboration with GMN (I have to blame myself for not helping you guys) and although as I recall cokehabit was exaggerating when he stated "When I wrote most of the GWN", you could have "sugar-coated" your reply a bit. As it's clear that both of you (Steve and Josh) are unable to deal with the other, I would like to ask you to keep making an effort to "not cross roads" with the other.
I don't think there's anything else to be done here - or that we can do at moment. Thus, I'm closing this bug as CANTFIX. Reopen the bug if you disagree.
(In reply to comment #4) > Unlocking for reporter and CC list. Steve, please don't remove unlocks on the > bug or you won't be able to see the progress of it. > I didn't; you appear to have an issue on your bugzilla whereby it automatically locks out the poster if s/he doesn't have permission to view the bug, although it only appears to happen once they login to view it. jmb mentioned the same on IRC when I complained about being locked out of my own bug. (In reply to comment #7) > After looking at the forums thread and the "reiserfs bug", I think there was no > CoC violation by Josh (nightmorph). > Both Josh and Steve overreact about the other's comments and actions. Hang on: I didn't overreact to anything; as stated I replied politely to his post. I only complained after he reported that post to the moderators. Please detail exactly how or why you think my prior posts merited such action, since if they did not, it was indeed an abuse of his position. > Steve, > you abused forums policy by replying to Josh's report in the original thread > and not in the report thread. Actually I was specifically told to do that, since it is Forum policy that one is not allowed to respond in the report thread; see bug 234468 for the precedent. As such I was in fact following forum policy. > Besides, as Josh pointed out, he didn't reply to > your comment but to George's (cokehabit). So what? He did so in the public forum as part of the public discussion and I had every right to discuss his mean-spirited denigration of a user's contribution, which I did respectfully and politely. > If anything, Josh seems unaware that > for a few issues GWN did have a forums section to which some people > contributed, including forum moderators (mark_alec sent a few articles and I > sent 1 or 2). So, he was unaware of the actual history, as well as being unable to discuss anything with opfer. Thing is, it wouldn't matter so much if he hadn't chosen to insult cokehabit about it. > I also notice the thread in question started on Feb 27th, had 5 neutral posts > in the following week and was silent until Aug 24th. All the *fun* started on > October 9th after Steve's comment "...thanks for showing us the Gentoo way in > action" That's untrue; the "fun" started after cokehabit's post asked what had changed, which nightmorph didn't need to respond so nastily to; I've already mentioned how he /could/ have dealt with all of this above, in a manner in keeping with the CoC. > Steve please refrain from making such comments. Hang on; rane above mentions "a sorrow request", although nightmorph's post had more insults than any other content. You're saying a user is not allowed to make one "sorrow comment" after being ignored on a stickied forum thread for *three* months, but a developer, who should be held to a higher standard, is allowed to insult everyone else involved, simply as he feels sorry for himself, and despite the fact that he hadn't bothered to reply to the thread before. > Besides, no one ever > told you that you had to do A or B, you presumed that by the silence. It's > better to poke people and make direct questions than to presume something > from their silence. You're making no sense; this was a _stickied_ thread ASKING for help. Anyone, including nightmorph, could have responded much earlier. That he did not do so, and only stepped in to put cokehabit down, means he can hardly claim that this was "his" support request (the `lying' part of my complaint, leaving aside his slander of me, since everyone seems to think that insulting me is ok.) > Josh, I understand your frustration about the collaboration with > GMN Yeah he's allowed to be frustrated and vent on all the users, but I'm not allowed to mildly express disappointment at being blanked on a request for help for such a long period. Great impartiality. Further, he has all the avenues of interaction available to him to discuss the issue with opfer; as you mentioned for me, a user, above: he should have just contacted him directly. > (I have to blame myself for not helping you guys) and although as I recall > cokehabit was exaggerating when he stated "When I wrote most of the GWN", you > could have "sugar-coated" your reply a bit. See my initial complaint about what he could and should have done. Simply put he should not have been so mean-spirited. > As it's clear that both of you (Steve and Josh) are unable to deal with the > other, I would like to ask you to keep making an effort to "not cross roads" > with the other. > That's exactly what I have done for the last two years; I've never made a devrel complaint, but this behaviour was too egregious in my opinion. I would like someone at Gentoo to kindly acknowledge that I had done nothing wrong in that thread, and said nothing about developers that nightmorph himself had not said, and furthermore that he was denigrating the users by accusing us of "drama" as well as being mean-spirited in his approach to cokehabit. He was clearly complaining about a lack of dev coordination: "no one's bothered talking to us about it. This thread was started by opfer, a Gentoo developer.." I found it amazing even to read that, from a Gentoo developer who clearly couldn't be bothered simply to get in touch with his peers and arrange an effective response, either by forgetting the request for help, which *again* he never made and hence was lying about in his report of my post, or by arranging to take it over gracefully. No offence, jmb, but in your rush to make things nicer, you're ignoring the complaint and the specific points being made. Please answer the specific allegations, and either show that his behaviour was not in breach of the CoC -- iow show he was not being mean-spirited and insulting but was behaving respectfully and in accordance with that document-- or admit that it was and let the fellow apologise so we can forget about it. "Respectfully disagree with or challenge other members. The operative word here is respectfully. Admit the possibility of fault and respect different point of views. Flaming and trolling. What is trolling? You are deemed to be trolling if you make comments intended to provoke an angry response from others." which his reporting of my post clearly was; I point out here that I was only made aware of this by another user, and if the complaint had been upheld I would have been banned from the forums; no notification was given to me of his unwarranted action: the "abuse of position" I mentioned. I would argue his insult to cokehabit was intended to do the same, and it is only because cokehabit refrained from replying (showing more maturity than nightmorph) that a flamefest did not arise. That was the intent of my post, pointing out that it was a bit mean of him to insult cokehabit like that: so that cokehabit would not later feel the need to respond. It was also pointless so long after the event and added _nothing_ to the discussion apart from a sense of nastiness. "What is flaming? Flaming is the act of sending or posting messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting." Which the post that started all the "fun" clearly was. Please show how it was not, if you disagree. "Posting/participating only to incite drama or negativity rather than to tactfully share information." Which he did; if he doesn't want "polarising posts" he shouldn't as a developer post accusing all the users of drama, completely ignoring that all the "drama" comes from people worried about the antics of the developers, and the implications of those on the distro they use and love. I was waiting for a response from nightmorph, which is why I had not responded earlier. That was not an indication that I thought this issue over; reopening. Adding Naib to CC as I'd like some non-Gentoo eyes looking at this; no offence, but so far all I've heard is ranks closing, and an avoidance of both the issues I've raised and the terms of the CoC. Also adding neddy and musikc as they know me and have more experience of mediation (sorry to drag you guys in, it should be clear why I feel this isn't being handled correctly.)
Seems reporter and CC are locked again. I'll ask robbat2 if this is a bugzilla bug. Steve, you didn't reply to this bug for the last month nor were there any comments from anyone since October 23rd. I think Josh has opted not to comment to avoid an escalation and to do what I asked you both to do - "avoid crossing roads". I don't think there's anything else to be done here, but you're free to disagree. About bringing in Chrissy and Roy, you should know that Chrissy as a devrel member has been getting the mails for this bug since the start. About bringing in "non-gentoo" eyes into this, I don't know how you expect such "eyes" to change the outcome, in that anyone involved can present their opinions and can try to make their case, but it's up to devrel to make a decision. As it's clear that my job in here wasn't successful, I'll step back.
Steve, I'd like to speak with you briefly, although I'm hard to reach on weekends. I'll look for you next week if you like, or you can find me. As you wish. Thanks, Ferris
(In reply to comment #10) > Seems reporter and CC are locked again. I'll ask robbat2 if this is a bugzilla > bug. > I'll probably get locked out again; while I'm here I hope this isn't being sent out to the two user accts blatantly abusing the bugzilla? (they're called: I Am Spying On Igli <iamalsospyingonigli@gmail.com> I Spy <iamspyingonigly@googlemail.com> Given that I couldn't officially do anything about rbrown following my comments, for no other reason than I'd told ciaranm to grow up on IRC, I haven't tried to sort these two out either, before now.) > you didn't reply to this bug for the last month nor were there any comments > from anyone since October 23rd. Indeed; I was told nightmorph would be unavailable until November so did not see the point in spamming the parties concerned. It was clearly left that we would be waiting for his response, however. > I think Josh has opted not to comment to avoid > an escalation and to do what I asked you both to do - "avoid crossing roads". And as stated, I have avoided him for the last two years, and consciously chosen not to file any further Documentation bugs. His only interaction with me two years later is to report my post, talking complete untruths, and failing totally to take responsibility for his own posting. > I don't think there's anything else to be done here, but you're free to > disagree. I'd like an apology. > About bringing in Chrissy and Roy, you should know that Chrissy as a devrel > member has been getting the mails for this bug since the start. Great; I trust you all agree she's impartial? > About bringing in "non-gentoo" eyes into this, I don't know how you expect > such "eyes" to change the outcome, in that anyone involved can present their > opinions and can try to make their case, I'd just like to feel that you're all aware this isn't simply about Gentoo devs and their feelings about their peers, it's actually about the Gentoo community as a whole; I have no idea why antarus was put on here, only that he has sent some email to the alias, presumably about this bug, which I am of course not privy to. Leaving aside the lack of transparency, Naib was involved in the original thread and I asked him a while back if I could add him as cc when there was some movement. > but it's up to devrel to make a decision. > As it's clear that my job in here wasn't successful, I'll step back. > I'm sorry if I appeared rude; I should have said 'conflict resolution' rather than 'moderation.' Like it or not, this comes down to a judgement call: would you feel okay at being treated like that, if you were either cokehabit or myself? Are you really maintaining that nightmorph's original post was not denigrating of cokehabit's contribution, nor tarring all users with the same "drama queen" brush, while ignoring where the drama has come from? Reporting the thread was underhand and malicious, and I feel I've sufficiently explained exactly how and why I think the original forum post was in breach of the CoC. Let the man answer for himself and show how it was in fact in accordance with the CoC, or anyone else for that matter. I point out again, that I tried simply to dampen the flames caused by his obnoxious post, and that I had been involved with that thread for months. If he really was interested in taking this on, why not post sooner? He only appeared to get involved in reaction to cokehabit. And why not discuss it with opfer, like I am somehow supposed to get that I mustn't use the forums for their stated purpose, but should instead directly email people who clearly aren't interested in my help? Dunno about you, but I find random emails from people I don't know annoying, and I am certainly not about to send them to someone who's blanking me. igli -- not at all surprised you have manpower issues.
"igli -- not at all surprised you have manpower issues." Don't you have something else in life to do other than trolling here and on the forums?
(In reply to comment #13) > Don't you have something else in life to do other than trolling here and on the > forums? I'm trying to resolve an issue; if you have nothing substantive to add, kindly stop commenting; your comment is definitely what I'd call trolling or flaming, especially combined with your unprofessional and sneering approach from the beginning.
You're not resolving anything. You're simply harassing one of our developers. I consider filing an userrel bug and encouraging them to take an action against you based on your posts here, on the forums and to the mailing lists. You're a poisonous person who spends his life trolling our channels of communication. I think it's time somebody put an end to your attacks on Gentoo and Gentoo Developers. Please stop before it's too late for you.
I have spoken with slong regarding this bug and the forum thread that sparked it. It is clear that slong feels that nightmorph was abusive towards users however this is not a shared assessment. Members of Developer Relations and User Relations (fmccor, jmbsvicetto, and myself) have each heard from slong on this issue, have reviewed the forum thread and the bug, and have all come to the same conclusion: nightmorph was not being abusive and the best course of action for both parties would be to restrict contact to a minimum to avoid future misunderstandings. > Reporting the thread was underhand and malicious... It is not necessary for us to assess the validity of nightmorph's escalation to forum moderators as that is the task of the forum moderators. On a final note, I do wish to apologize for any inappropriate or unprofessional responses from my team. I can appreciate the frustration from both sides however we need to set aside personal feelings, do our jobs to the best of our abilities, and not take it out on each other.
(In reply to comment #16) > I have spoken with slong regarding this bug and the forum thread that sparked > it. It is clear that slong feels that nightmorph was abusive towards users > however this is not a shared assessment. Members of Developer Relations and > User Relations (fmccor, jmbsvicetto, and myself) have each heard from slong on > this issue, have reviewed the forum thread and the bug, and have all come to > the same conclusion: nightmorph was not being abusive Odd; that's not what they said to me. That you have established some sort of 'consensus' line doesn't change that. > and the best course of > action for both parties would be to restrict contact to a minimum to avoid > future misunderstandings. > That's already been agreed by me several times and is what I have been doing. The future courses of action, mirroring what I have done for 2 years, do _not_ change the need for a judgement call on this _past_ behaviour. > > Reporting the thread was underhand and malicious... > It is not necessary for us to assess the validity of nightmorph's escalation to > forum moderators as that is the task of the forum moderators. > You're hiding behind policy imo. Day-to-day moderation can never be as in-depth or as reflective as user/devrel (which is why they exist.) nightmorph filed two other trivial reports just before he filed mine, and obviously by the time I responded to that report I was angry. Again I have to ask: "Please detail exactly how or why you think my prior posts merited such action, since if they did not, it was indeed an abuse of his position." "show he was not being mean-spirited and insulting but was behaving respectfully and in accordance with that document" The funny thing is, that fmmcor told me nightmorph agreed that he "shouldn't have said what he did" wrt denigrating users. Yet he is apparently unable/willing to comment on a locked bug wrt his behaviour, nor to respond to a forum post which was restricted to the topics he raised. He was willing to discuss with me personally (which I refused; afaic you should moderate in the medium where it happened, and once it's official answer for yourself.) Great way to take responsibility for his own actions. > On a final note, I do wish to apologize for any inappropriate or unprofessional > responses from my team. You mean rane I take it, as I haven't seen anyone else behaving inappropriately? Appreciated (and very necessary.) >I can appreciate the frustration from both sides Not sure what he had to be frustrated about, but let's move on. > however we need to set aside personal feelings, do our jobs to the best of > our abilities, and not take it out on each other. Well if anyone wants to talk without constraint, feel free to ping me on IRC. Honestly, one would think there were no ways for you people to contact me directly instead of venting on @gentoo.org sites.. ;p (Yes rane, that's a joke: try not to focus on one minor thing at the end all the time. That's what _substantive_ response is about.)
Let's have a more accurate resolution.
(In reply to comment #18) > Let's have a more accurate resolution. > Steve, This issue is closed as expressed in Comment 16. I understand you want some other resolution, but it is resolved as it is. I don't know why you brought it up again over two weeks after the resolution. I think I can safely say that we (userrel/devrel) are satisfied that is is resolved. Please let it go and move on to other things. As best as I recall, what I told you is accurate. But many of us express ourselves in ways we later regret; such incidents just are not worth all the time spent on this bug --- several of us have spent a lot of time on this and believe musikc has it right. If you wish to comment on what I have written please contact me or anyone you like privately: part of our "job" is to listen and discuss. But please do not comment further on this bug.
