The change made by bug 482694 has create bugs in documentation. - systemd has not legit reason to be cite at section 6 of the installation handbook, or other init system should be also cite. - the link pointing to the wiki is pointing to an error, as Systemd is not the name of systemd - systemd is shown as optional on all archs installation documentation when not all archs have a stable version of systemd - the section <After step 5, core packages, which are the same on all Gentoo installations, are installed"> should be change to reflect a base gentoo system might not be the same as all Gentoo installations. Reproducible: Always Expected Results: Here are the changes i'm asking : - Reverting the tagged bug changes as this will fix all issues Or fixing all issues one by one : - Moving systemd section to a proper place one of these : Gnome documentation / Section 1 "What are my Options" place / "Alternative installation Guide" - If systemd option is kept at section 6 : add other init alternative as well. - Removing systemd option from arch that doesn't have systemd stable package - Removing link to a bad url link, or fix the wiki and point the link to the fixed url As per Michał Górny suggest i removed any "political" discussion present in https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=493190 So it's kinda a dup of that bug, but i would appreciate not seeing it close as DUP or COMREL when it's a documentation issue.
(In reply to Stéphane Pagnon from comment #0) > The change made by bug 482694 has create bugs in documentation. > > - systemd has not legit reason to be cite at section 6 of the installation > handbook, or other init system should be also cite. What other init systems besides OpenRC and systemd are available as stable packages on (at least some) architectures? > - the link pointing to the wiki is pointing to an error, as Systemd is not > the name of systemd The Wiki software used requires article URLs to begin with an uppercase letter. The link thus is not a mistake. The proper capitalization is displayed in the actual page title. > - systemd is shown as optional on all archs installation documentation when > not all archs have a stable version of systemd This is the closest thing to an actual issue that needs fixing in your post.
> > - systemd has not legit reason to be cite at section 6 of the installation > > handbook, or other init system should be also cite. > > What other init systems besides OpenRC and systemd are available as stable > packages on (at least some) architectures? > At least http://packages.gentoo.org/package/sys-apps/sysvinit But busybox can be one too. But still it's not the right section, you are installing gentoo, not systemd/gentoo or busybox/gentoo. So until systemd is default init, installing gentoo should remain installing gentoo. This addition will bug user that have no knowledge of what is OpenRC or systemd. Like i said, adding it to alternative installation doc is appropriate as user wish alternative to default gentoo, and adding it to gnome doc is a need create by gnome and a natural choice too so. > > - the link pointing to the wiki is pointing to an error, as Systemd is not > > the name of systemd > > The Wiki software used requires article URLs to begin with an uppercase > letter. The link thus is not a mistake. The proper capitalization is > displayed in the actual page title. Technical issue from the wiki so. Something that can be avoid by fixing the wiki or pointing to another url that redirect to it... You are aware of the reason why systemd is named Systemd in the url : how many users are knowing that reason? As you can see, at least one didn't knew it...
(In reply to Stéphane Pagnon from comment #2) > > > - systemd has not legit reason to be cite at section 6 of the installation > > > handbook, or other init system should be also cite. > > > > What other init systems besides OpenRC and systemd are available as stable > > packages on (at least some) architectures? > > > At least http://packages.gentoo.org/package/sys-apps/sysvinit > But busybox can be one too. I can not remember one single user in our support IRC channel asking about standalone sysvinit or busybox as init. There are however plenty of people asking about systemd -- and other people being able to provide them with support. So we have stable packages and a support community. That's the same as with OpenRC, but not the choices you mentioned. Remember, Gentoo is about choice. Hiding just-as-well-supported options just because you don't like them for whatever reason is depriving people of their choice. We have also lots of comparisons, so people know what they're in for when they want systemd. And it's not like they can't change again after a bad experience. > > > - the link pointing to the wiki is pointing to an error, as Systemd is not > > > the name of systemd > > > > The Wiki software used requires article URLs to begin with an uppercase > > letter. The link thus is not a mistake. The proper capitalization is > > displayed in the actual page title. > Technical issue from the wiki so. Something that can be avoid by fixing the > wiki or pointing to another url that redirect to it... There is nothing to fix, this is intentional. I am certainly not going to start maintaining manual redirects. > You are aware of the reason why systemd is named Systemd in the url : how > many users are knowing that reason? > As you can see, at least one didn't knew it... This circumstance is known to at least every person who has edited the Wikipedia in the past: c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
> Remember, Gentoo is about choice. Hiding just-as-well-supported options just > because you don't like them I didn't express my opinion in that bug report about systemd or other options as Michał Górny suggest me to do in the other bug report. Don't gives me words i didn't say (of course "here"), what i was asked to do should be apply to my interlocutors too no? The given reasons are : - installing gentoo is not installing busybox/gentoo or systemd/gentoo. - this addition will bug users that have no knowledge of what is OpenRC or systemd. Just like any information that is not critical to install gentoo would lower the handbook value, as the more you add, the more complicate it becomes. the KISS principle. Because of these, the section 6 is not the appropriate place for systemd/sysinit... As it's a documentation to install gentoo, use by users with a lot of different level at handling or even knowing linux. And it would be "depriving people of their choice" if i query to remove any systemd mention from documentation. While i'm asking it to be moved to a more appropriate place. > We have also lots of comparisons, so people know what they're in for > when they want systemd. And it's not like they can't change again after a > bad experience. > This is not "Tweak and play with your Gentoo" documentation, it's about the installation handbook. Such comparisons cannot help user installing gentoo except to harder the task. > This circumstance is known to at least every person who has edited the > Wikipedia in the past: c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd I'm not sure of that answer, are you trying to say : I'm not aware of it because i don't contribute to the wiki. Or handbook users are only wiki contributors and so the handbook is for them ?
(In reply to Stéphane Pagnon from comment #4) > I didn't express my opinion in that bug report about systemd or other > options as Michał Górny suggest me to do in the other bug report. > Don't gives me words i didn't say (of course "here") Let us avoid opinion about people or products going forward, whether it took place can be left aside; let's be constructive to fulfill this site's purpose. > The given reasons are : > - installing gentoo is not installing busybox/gentoo or systemd/gentoo. > - this addition will bug users that have no knowledge of what is OpenRC or > systemd. Just like any information that is not critical to install gentoo > would lower the handbook value, as the more you add, the more complicate it > becomes. the KISS principle. That is good reasoning; but, Gentoo needs to look at the rest of the picture. An user that knows and wants to install GNOME has to go through these steps: - Is there a stage3 that comes with systemd? No. - Did the handbook tell to switch to systemd early? No. - Does the GNOME documentation even tell me about it? No. (http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gnome-config.xml) - Does the user have to discover later and do a migration? Yes. So, we are effectively forcing users that want GNOME down a painful path; not to forget that the migration is something that could be made obsolete by bringing it early in the stage3 or at a point where switching isn't costly. An educated choice is better than spending time going the wrong way and covering up later; especially when we're talking about something as important as the init system, which is what the user will end up using. A similar thought regarding usability & consistency: Why force the user down one init system only to have the user relearn its commands on another init system? > Because of these, the section 6 is not the appropriate place for > systemd/sysinit... As it's a documentation to install gentoo, use by users > with a lot of different level at handling or even knowing linux. I agree with you that inserting systemd references everywhere isn't the right way forward; therefore I would love to see a separate stage3 with separate documentation for systemd, common parts of that documentation can be covered by Wiki Templates or something like that. Then we just note early on that people that consider to use GNOME should rather pick that stage3. But as that's no longer under the scope of this bug, I won't further discuss this road here; it is just worth a thought. > And it would be "depriving people of their choice" if i query to remove any > systemd mention from documentation. While i'm asking it to be moved to a > more appropriate place. +1 Listing it as an alternative gives the user another bottom-up (init system) choice to research which is a bad thing as the installation is long enough as it is; if we instead work top-down (DE) and make the user install a system that fits that particular choice, we can achieve a fluent installation experience. On the other hand, we need to limit the amount of hand holding we do in this; we're trying to fix the costly migration, not introduce hand holding everywhere. > > We have also lots of comparisons, so people know what they're in for > > when they want systemd. And it's not like they can't change again after a > > bad experience. > > This is not "Tweak and play with your Gentoo" documentation, it's about the > installation handbook. Such comparisons cannot help user installing gentoo > except to harder the task. Or make it more easy, as picking systemd early on spares out a migration later.
(In reply to Tom Wijsman (TomWij) from comment #5) > That is good reasoning; but, Gentoo needs to look at the rest of the > picture. > > An user that knows and wants to install GNOME has to go through these steps: > > - Is there a stage3 that comes with systemd? No. Agree. But doesn't concern my bug report. > > - Did the handbook tell to switch to systemd early? No. Agree. But did you miss i suggest moving it to 1 "What are my options". And 1 is < 6 so it just comes : earlier. Here's the part that is emphasis there : "Note: For help on the other installation approaches, including using non-Gentoo CDs, please read our Alternative Installation Guide." This can be easy change to a "including non-Gentoo CDs or other init system" (maybe something better write than that) > > - Does the GNOME documentation even tell me about it? No. Agree. But this doesn't concern my bug report. This bug report is not trying to fix all systemd/gnome problems. Only handbook ones. > - Does the user have to discover later and do a migration? Yes. - You seems to forget an important step there : if the user have that concern it's because the handbook has done its job and the user have a working gentoo running. His concern about his next steps are (should be) covered by other documentation : will he wish gnome, kde, xfce, or just no DE at all... - Or if the user have that concern before installing gentoo, that user is not common user aim by handbook : he have already some base, he knows systemd exists, he knows gnome use it, he knows gentoo doesn't use it per default. So the audience for this kind of user is (should be) covered by alternative documentation. > So, we are effectively forcing users that want GNOME down a painful path; This happen not because gentoo, <a distro>, has made a choice to use an init. It's because gnome: <a DE>, choose to tied an init system to itself... By doing that, gnome team has put pain on their own users. And by choosing an init that isn't portable, they put pain on gnome itself. So in no way i blame gentoo or gentoo devs for that. That's an upstream issue.
*** Bug 493190 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Reverting is not necessary imo. The previous bug is valid - having one or two paragraphs to point users to the systemd information is a good addition, without making the existing documentation more difficult. So let's see what the various issues are covered in this bug report and if I can fix them. (1.) Adding other init alternatives If there are any that I can point to, I definitely don't mind. Although from the discussions on #gentoo I think the most important ones are the OpenRC (default) one and systemd by far. So if you know of a paragraph you want to add and/or a link to a wiki page with more information, I'll gladly add it. But please use a different bug report for that. (2.) Systemd is shown on all architectures Yes, that's indeed an error. I'll fix it so that it only occurs on the amd64, arm, ppc, ppc64 and x86 handbooks. (3.) The link is called "systemd page" I don't think this is a bug per sé. If I call it Systemd page (as the name of the wiki page) then I'll have an equally valid bug saying that "systemd" is the correct spelling of systemd. The text can be read as both "Systemd page" (the page called 'Systemd') and "systemd page" (the page talking about systemd). It is semantics, and so equally valid.
Should be fixed (architecture part), should show up on the site in an hour or so.
