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Gentoo's Bugzilla – Attachment 74687 Details for
Bug 114944
Problems with ciaranm atagonizing other devs!!
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10/6 gentoo-dev attacks
excerpt (text/plain), 38.45 KB, created by
Brian Harring (RETIRED)
on 2005-12-13 19:44:20 UTC
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Description:
10/6 gentoo-dev attacks
Filename:
MIME Type:
Creator:
Brian Harring (RETIRED)
Created:
2005-12-13 19:44:20 UTC
Size:
38.45 KB
patch
obsolete
>15:36 <@vapier> ferringb: read http://rafb.net/paste/results/wzP70K11.html >15:36 <@Ticho> i never needed it >15:36 <@Cardoe> I'm not trying to use dmix >15:37 <@Cardoe> I just installed ALSA >15:37 <@dragonheart> robbat2: want me to look at the bacula sec bug = I was just going to backport the script to the 1.36.3 version >15:37 <@ferringb> vapier: pretty simple, ain't it? >15:37 <@ferringb> vapier: guessing that means you like flamey's idea? >15:37 <@vapier> ferringb: err, i proposed this idea a while ago and you said no :P >15:38 <@ferringb> oh >15:38 <@ferringb> well I'm an idiot >15:38 <@vapier> i know >15:38 <@ferringb> vapier: you know well enough not to listen to me... >15:38 <@vapier> i didnt care enough at the time to argue the point :P >15:38 <@ferringb> heh >15:38 <@ciaranm> it's ok, ferringb doesn't argue points anyway. he just accuses you of trying to sabotage things >15:39 <@ferringb> hmm. downside is that profiles still need to provide those settings for backwards compatibility >15:39 <@ferringb> ciaranm: hey now >15:39 <@ferringb> you said I wrote well written rhetoric once upon a time >15:39 <@ferringb> give me some credit >15:39 <@ciaranm> you do. it's still just rhetoric though >15:39 <@vapier> ferringb: you sound like a chick >15:39 * bonsaikitten wonders what drugs are in the water this week >15:39 <@ferringb> ciaranm: and you're capable of nothing but running your mouth. >15:39 <@ferringb> we all have our deficiencies. >15:40 * vapier waits for the makeup sex >15:40 <@bonsaikitten> mmmh >15:40 <@Flameeyes> ok so i'm not completely an idiot, yet? :P >15:40 <@ferringb> vapier: Flameeyes: open a bug about it >15:40 <@vapier> Flameeyes: speak when spoken to wh0re >15:40 <@Spider> ciaranm: hmm, afaik. pastor chick is quite renown for his skills.... >15:40 <@Spider> *Grins* >15:40 <@ferringb> don't think jason will complain, but worth checking >15:40 <@bonsaikitten> Flameeyes, sssh, the grownups are talking, be silent ;-) >15:40 <@Flameeyes> vapier, i should speak when they speak to you? >15:40 <@ciaranm> vapier: unlikely. ferringb's planning to unleash a plague of biblical proportions again >15:40 <@ferringb> ugh. >15:40 <@ferringb> ciaranm: it's external >15:40 <@ferringb> get a fucking life, bluntly. >15:41 -!- tannewt [n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt] has joined #gentoo-dev >15:41 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o tannewt] by ChanServ >15:41 <@eradicator|soda> vapier: hey... what's the --with-sysroot=${PREFIX}/${CTARGET} in toolchain.eclass for... it breaks emerges of 3.4.4 crosscompilers here. do you need that for 4.x or something? >15:41 <@vapier> language, this is a family environment ! >15:41 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you have no say over how others spend their time, so kidnly recall that. >15:41 <@ciaranm> ferringb: and then when it's about to go internal, you'll use the "you should've said something earlier" line >15:41 <@ferringb> *kindly >15:41 <@vapier> eradicator: works fine for me >15:41 <@ferringb> ciaranm: nope. >15:41 <@vapier> tested mips/sh/arm >15:41 <@bonsaikitten> ciaranm, you didn't say anything except "it won't work, you suck" >15:41 <@Flameeyes> vapier, you're going to open that bug then? :P >15:41 <@vapier> it was needed to get mips abi properly working again >15:41 <@ciaranm> ferringb: we've been through this before. since all you have to do is get 50% of the votes on a council where 50% of the people will vote yes on everything, it'll go through >15:42 <@vapier> Flameeyes: nah just file a new one >15:42 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: actually, i explained where the problems are right at the start >15:42 <@eradicator|soda> vapier: well, it causes this: http://dev.gentoo.org/~eradicator/cross >15:42 <@bonsaikitten> ciaranm, i remember the "it's pvdabeels fault" part ... >15:42 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: at least, some of the problems. there'll be others, but they're not so obvious >15:42 <@vapier> eradicator: re-emerge your glibc, the ebuild has been updated to provide those symlinks >15:42 <@ferringb> ciaranm: considering you've seen no code, I suggest you bite your tongue and wait. >15:42 <@johnm> dsd_: ah very cool >15:42 <@vapier> you should have a /usr/$CTARGET/usr symlink to . >15:42 <@johnm> hah.. just found out my g/f does Mark Shuttleworth's accounts. (he has too much money!) >15:43 <@ciaranm> ferringb: i've seen the thing claiming to be the design, which is more than enough >15:43 <@vapier> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1 Aug 28 21:16 /usr/sh4-unknown-linux-gnu/usr -> . >15:43 <@eradicator|soda> that's a bit ugly, imo >15:43 <@vapier> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Aug 28 21:16 /usr/sh4-unknown-linux-gnu/sys-include -> include >15:43 <@ferringb> ciaranm: 'k. well, either way, like I said, external. again, you have no say. >15:43 <@vapier> what's your point ? >15:43 <@vapier> if you feel like patching the sources of gcc/glibc/binutils, feel free >15:43 <@ferringb> deal with it, but harassment isn't dealing with it. >15:44 <@ciaranm> ferringb: and when it comes to merge time, "it's already written, so you have no say". and when it hits the tree "it's too late to change things now" >15:44 <@eradicator|soda> it works fine without --with-sysroot >15:44 <@bonsaikitten> ciaranm, so write it yourself ... >15:44 <@eradicator|soda> so why was it added? Was something broken that adding it fixed? >15:44 <@vapier> sure, if you dont want abi support >15:44 <@ferringb> ciaranm: take off your tinfoil hat. >15:44 <@bonsaikitten> kids these days, only whining but can't even do anything without mommy >15:44 <@vapier> with the sysroot feature, mips n32/n64 works now >15:44 <@eradicator|soda> ah ok >15:44 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: i don't think anyone's come up with a satisfactory *design* yet. far to early to start talking about code >15:45 <@ferringb> ciaranm: alright, here's a design. >15:45 <@ChrisWhite> eradicator|soda: |soda? >15:45 <@ferringb> we add a $PREFIX var. >15:45 <@ferringb> we make portage function in an offset. >15:45 <@eradicator|soda> ChrisWhite: the location of my office >15:45 <@ferringb> ciaranm: we then fix the required tools for building so it works, and work on ebuilds. >15:45 <@Chainsaw> bonsaikitten: You are trying to acquire constructive critisism from ciaranm. Expect to spend more time then this before it comes out, if at all. >15:45 <@soulse-> dsd_: ping >15:45 <@Cardoe> Ticho: >15:45 <@Cardoe> * Starting Music Player Daemon ... >15:45 <@Cardoe> problems shmget'ing >15:45 <@ChrisWhite> eradicator|soda: your office is in a soda can o_O >15:45 <@ciaranm> ferringb: three lines is not a design for something this complicated. three lines isn't enough for an executive summary >15:45 <@ferringb> ciaranm: write out a fucking spec then. >15:46 <@ferringb> I'm not. >15:46 <@ciaranm> neither am i, because i'm not claiming to have a solution >15:46 <@ferringb> oy. round and round. >15:46 <@bonsaikitten> Chainsaw, as long as he's yelling at me you have more time to do useful stuff ;-) >15:47 <@dsd_> soulse-: pong >15:47 <@Cardoe> net-www/apache-2.0.54-r31 -apache2 >15:47 <@bonsaikitten> ciaranm, so it doesn't work because nobody has done this before? :-) >15:47 <@Cardoe> Anyone have ANY clue why the Apache 2 ebuild has an "apache2" USE flag? >15:47 <@Cardoe> WTF!? >15:47 <@eradicator|soda> ChrisWhite: Soda Hall. It's named after a guy who donated a ton of money >15:47 <@ferringb> bonsaikitten: stop. >15:47 <@Ticho> Cardoe: http://pastebin.com/385485 >15:47 <@Chainsaw> Cardoe: Yeah, cool, isn't it? >15:47 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: er, no. it won't work because basic and obvious flaws haven't been solved yet >15:47 <@Cardoe> Chainsaw: someone on crack eh? >15:47 <@Chainsaw> Cardoe: It tells the ebuild whether to install to apache1 or apache2 locations, apparently. >15:47 <@Chainsaw> Cardoe: I had quite a 'wtf' moment too, when I saw that. >15:48 <@bonsaikitten> Cardoe, arts could be built with USE="-arts" :-) >15:48 -!- NightMonkey [n=NightMon@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/NightMonkey] has joined #gentoo-dev >15:48 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: it's like worrying whether or not your pencil will work on the moon when you don't have a spacecraft yet >15:48 <+ReJ> G apache2 - Chooses Apache2 support when a package supports both Apache1 and Apache2 >15:48 <@latexer> anybody know which split xorg package has sessreg? >15:48 <@Cardoe> Ticho: so why is that failing? >15:48 <@Ticho> Cardoe: no clue >15:48 -!- beejay is now known as beejay|off >15:48 <+beejay|off> night. >15:49 <@axxo> you can start making a space-inc-pen though >15:49 <@ChrisWhite> eradicator|soda: hmmm.. soda as a last name.. that must work great for parties :p >15:49 <@Cardoe> latexer: xdm might >15:49 -!- pYrania_ [n=pyrania@gentoo/developer/pYrania] has joined #gentoo-dev >15:49 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o pYrania_] by ChanServ >15:49 <@Cardoe> latexer: but it doesn't look like it's in Gentoo yet. >15:49 <@latexer> Cardoe: hrm... >15:49 <@Cardoe> workspace/modular-x/app/sessreg >15:50 <@Cardoe> my CVS checkout >15:50 <@Cardoe> It's split off as it's own app >15:50 <@kito> ciaranm so the 'major flaws' you keep referring to, this is the autotools problem you mentioned? >15:50 <+ReJ> SODA = Small office down alley >15:50 <@ciaranm> kito: that's one of them. sadly it's far from the only one >15:50 -!- jaervosz [n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz] has quit [Connection timed out] >15:50 <@latexer> Cardoe: are the ebuilds for the split stuff that messy to create? >15:51 <@kito> ciaranm being vague doesn't help >15:51 -!- jaervosz [n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz] has joined #gentoo-dev >15:51 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o jaervosz] by ChanServ >15:51 <@Cardoe> latexer: not really. >15:51 <@ciaranm> kito: i already posted a huge list way back when this first started >15:51 <@kito> ciaranm lots of other projects have dealt with most of these problems. We can do it better >15:51 <@Cardoe> latexer: just gotta see if they've packaged up the app themselves. >15:51 <@latexer> Cardoe: i need to checkout to create the tarballs i'd assume though. >15:51 <@kito> ciaranm in haubis original thread? >15:51 <@Cardoe> latexer: yeah if they didn't make a tarball yet you will... that'll be the toughest part >15:51 <@ciaranm> kito: other projects do not attempt to handle situations like "there is a broken foo in /usr/bin and a working foo in /usr/gentoo/bin/" >15:52 <@latexer> Cardoe: well, here goes nothing.. (: >15:52 <@kito> ciaranm wrong. >15:52 <@ciaranm> kito: they rely upon PATH. PATH is insufficient >15:52 <@kito> wrong again. >15:52 <@kito> there is no silver bullet >15:53 <@ciaranm> of course there's no silver bullet. there is, however, something better than a sharpened stick >15:53 <@kito> yeap >15:53 <@kito> so lets do it, and stop dancing >15:53 <@ciaranm> and the current plan is a blunt, snapped twig >15:53 <@kito> if you want to design more, lets design >15:53 <@kito> ciaranm if you want to help, help >15:53 <@kito> if you don't, don't >15:53 <@ciaranm> kito: i am helping, by saving you from wasting hundreds of man hours on something that's totally wrong >15:53 <@kito> hahah >15:53 <@kito> 'totally wrong' >15:54 <@kito> what are you basing this on? >15:54 <@kito> haubis patches I presume >15:54 <@Cardoe> latexer: lemme know how it goes. >15:54 <@Cardoe> I need to head to work right now >15:54 <@Cardoe> latexer: but I'll give you a hand tonight if ya want >15:54 <@ciaranm> the patches to portage are a minor concern >15:54 <@ferringb> heh >15:54 <@ferringb> again, ignorance displayed. >15:54 <@kito> that doesn't make any sense >15:54 <@ciaranm> the main issue is not portage support. it's ebuild support >15:55 <@kito> ciaranm ok, no where are we? >15:55 <@kito> s/no/now/ >15:55 -!- kerin_ [i=kerin@dial81-131-136-69.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #gentoo-dev >15:55 <@ciaranm> kito: right now? you're assuming "we can do this magic stuff with a few vars and everything will work" >15:55 <@kito> whos assuming what? >15:55 <@kito> you are the only making assumptions >15:55 -!- kerframil [i=kerin@gentoo/user/kerframil] has quit [Nick collision from services.] >15:56 <@ciaranm> no, i'm the one not making assumptions >15:56 <@kito> in one breath, you say 'don't code, design', in the next breath you say ' the only sane way to approach it is patch ebuild.sh and tweak existing ebuilds' >15:56 -!- kerin_ [i=kerin@dial81-131-136-69.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #gentoo-dev [] >15:57 -!- kerframil [i=kerin@gentoo/user/kerframil] has joined #gentoo-dev >15:57 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+v kerframil] by ChanServ >15:57 <@ciaranm> fact: you will need to modify ebuilds to handle it >15:57 <@kito> check. >15:57 <@kito> keep going. >15:57 <@ciaranm> fact: there are an awful lot of ebuilds that are worked on by an awful lot of people >15:57 -!- JoseJX [n=jjezak@c-67-171-66-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] >15:57 <@kito> check. >15:57 <@kito> keep going. >15:58 <@ciaranm> fact: any ebuild changes which require nasty hacks will be rejected by many developers >15:58 <@kito> check. >15:58 <@ciaranm> fact: any ebuild changes required which are non-trivial will introduce a heck of a lot of bugs >15:58 <@Flameeyes> Cardoe, what was the keys to check the delay from mplayer >15:58 <@kito> ok captain obvious >15:59 <@kito> I'm still not seeing any new info >15:59 <@hansmi> Flameeyes: look at input.conf >15:59 <@ciaranm> conclusion: based upon said facts, ignoring the ebuild side of things is damned stupid >15:59 <@kito> ciaranm where on earth are you gathering ebuilds are going to be ignored? >15:59 <@Flameeyes> hansmi, make sense >16:00 <@ciaranm> kito: read the list. everyone is running around trying to fix portage before they've decided how the ebuild side will work >16:00 <@kito> ciaranm who is everyone? >16:00 <@kito> random people outside of gentoo? >16:00 <@kito> who cares about them >16:00 <@kito> no one is trying to 'fix' anything >16:00 <@ciaranm> heh. didn't you notice gentoo-alt basing its future upon "there will be prefixed installs"? >16:01 <@kito> who cares >16:01 <@ferringb> gentoo-alt isn't gentoo-osx, nor is gentoo-osx basing it's future upon it. >16:01 <@ciaranm> as one of the many people who will end up having to deal with the cleanup when the shit hits the fan, i'd say i care >16:01 <@kito> they can base it on whatever they want, that doesn't change trying to design this thing right >16:02 <@kito> ciaranm dude. stop being dense. You are smarter than this >16:02 <@kito> its in an overlay for starters >16:02 <@kito> and its in fact , following your exact proposal >16:02 <@ciaranm> you know how it goes. once there's code, it gets accepted with "if you don't want us to use this, come up with something better by next week" >16:02 <@kito> this is true >16:02 <@Flameeyes> ciaranm, gentoo-alt is no more pvdabeel, you know that as first? >16:02 <@kito> but tehre is no hurry, and noone making /. announcments this time >16:03 <@ciaranm> Flameeyes: uh huh >16:03 <@kito> we can take as long as needed >16:03 <@Flameeyes> ciaranm, so thank you, don't think gentoo-alt is the sme it was before >16:03 <@kito> thats neither here nor there >16:03 <@kito> separate topic entirely >16:03 <@ciaranm> Flameeyes: i'm reading what gentoo alt (in particular, osx) people are saying >16:04 <@kito> stop making this political, and keep it tech related >16:04 <@kito> ciaranm WHO CARES >16:04 <@kito> they aren't doing the work >16:04 <@Flameeyes> [23:01] <ciaranm> heh. didn't you notice gentoo-alt basing its future upon "there will be prefixed installs"? >16:04 <@kito> let them say what they want >16:04 <@latexer> Cardoe: argh... sessreg in apps/ has no sessreg.c or sessreg manpage. >16:05 -!- alech_k [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:05 <@ciaranm> kito: so that when this mess is 'ready', ferringb can say "if you wanted to object, you should've done so earlier. you have one week to produce a better alternative or this gets merged"? >16:05 -!- pYrania [n=pyrania@gentoo/developer/pYrania] has quit [Success] >16:05 -!- alech_k [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] >16:06 <@kito> ciaranm fine, that has nothing todo with gentoo-alt or gentoo-osx or gentoo-8088 >16:06 <@kito> lets move on >16:06 -!- alech [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:06 -!- alech [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #gentoo-dev [] >16:07 <@ciaranm> kito: you've not been reading grobian's emails, eh? >16:07 -!- alech [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:07 <@kito> ciaranm sure I have. But I still don't see that as being relevant to getting a design >16:07 <@kito> explain to me how that works >16:07 <@Ramereth> kito: he's just bored and being a troll like usual ;-) >16:08 <@ferringb> heh >16:08 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: no, i'm trying to help various people avoid wasting huge amounts of time on something that isn't going to work in its current form >16:08 -!- Hydrogen [n=hydrogen@londonderry-cuda2-68-171-252-188.lndnnh.adelphia.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] >16:08 <@Ramereth> kito: easy solution to your problem /ignore ciaranm >16:08 <@ferringb> Ramereth: no, see, you're not liking what you're hearing, and making attacks >16:08 <@ferringb> :) >16:08 <@latexer> Cardoe: ok, w(here)tf do all the files for app/s come from? all of them seem to have no souce files. >16:08 <@latexer> source* >16:08 <@kito> ciaranm thats the thing, you keep saying there is some huge direction already being taken >16:08 <+ReJ> Hey, people. Nice 'discussion'. Sounds interesting. What's it about? >16:08 <@Ramereth> ferringb: oh right, i don't know all the facts and i'm attacking him >16:08 <@kito> which is wrong >16:08 <@latexer> Josh_B: ping. >16:08 <@Flameeyes> i hate re-shifting in place video, i can't even get it right :/ >16:09 <@ciaranm> kito: ...and then when said patches are up for merged, it turns into "you should've said something earlier on, it's too late now" >16:09 <@bonsaikitten> Ramereth, query-ping - got a minute? >16:09 <@Ramereth> bonsaikitten: sure >16:10 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you didn't say anything when we decided we were going to do this externally, so it's too late to comment on it now. >16:10 <@ferringb> ciaranm: it's a stupid point. you're trolling to block people from doing something on that point, kindly stop. >16:11 <@ferringb> go get drunk or something >16:11 <@johnm> ciaranm: question... wondered if you can help. >16:11 <@ciaranm> ferringb: no no no. i'm trying to help some very stubborn and naive people to get it done properly >16:11 <@johnm> ciaranm: rxvt-unicode... why doesn't it accept the pound key.. any ideas? >16:11 <@ciaranm> johnm: £££ >16:11 <@johnm> ciaranm: it only bitches when I ssh to another box, and run screen >16:11 <@ciaranm> johnm: are you inside screen or somesuch? >16:11 <@johnm> ciaranm: right. >16:11 -!- sesamebike [n=sesamebi@c83-250-24-85.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] >16:11 <@ferringb> ciaranm: bluntly, nobody wants your help. >16:11 <@ciaranm> johnm: screen needs to be run in unicode mode >16:12 <@ferringb> ciaranm: the social cost of it is far to high for any claimed technical benefits >16:12 <@johnm> ciaranm: .conf/flag? >16:12 <@ferringb> ciaranm: as I said once already. kindly leave those alone who are attempting it, then rail their asses when they go to merge if it sucks. >16:12 <@johnm> ah, -U >16:12 <@johnm> thanks >16:12 <@ferringb> otherwise you're harassing people, and it's getting old. >16:12 <@ciaranm> ferringb: translation: "we have our heads stuck up our asses and we like to keep it that way" >16:12 <@ciaranm> johnm: there is a config option... slarti knows it >16:12 <@ferringb> harassing... people... >16:12 <@ferringb> as I said, go get drunk or something, control yourself. >16:13 <@kito> ciaranm more like "I can't stand another second of pointless cyclical discussion' >16:13 <@ciaranm> design... discussion... >16:13 -!- hydrogen [n=hydrogen@londonderry-cuda2-68-171-252-188.lndnnh.adelphia.net] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:13 <@ferringb> you're not changing anyone's opinions via this route. >16:13 <+ReJ> johnm: 'defutf8 on' in your [.]screenrc >16:13 -!- tove [n=tove@p54A60868.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["leaving"] >16:13 <@ciaranm> ferringb: how much is going to have to get broken before you learn? >16:14 <@tannewt> ferringb, ciaranm, and kito stop wasting your time insulting each other >16:14 <@tannewt> whats the problem? >16:14 <@ferringb> ugh >16:14 <@ferringb> tannewt: go read gentoo-porage-dev, read your back buffer, then join in. >16:14 <@johnm> ReJ: awesome.. thanks >16:14 <@ciaranm> tannewt: the problem, simply put, is that certain people don't have a frickin' clue how to design software >16:14 <+ReJ> johnm: yw >16:15 <@Flameeyes> tannewt, translate that as "they want to fight just for the sake of it" >16:15 <@tannewt> ciaranm, thats not the problem, thats your opinion >16:15 <@ciaranm> tannewt: no no, that's an easily verifiable fact >16:15 <@bonsaikitten> lol >16:16 <@tannewt> ferringb, whats the thread name? >16:16 <@Flameeyes> the next "fact" i hear that, i'm going to put a biiig ignore on #gentoo-dev, that's for everyone, kthnx, i have enough work to do >16:16 <@ferringb> tannewt: pretty easy to spot. just look for the most recent thread >16:16 <@tannewt> ferringb, the CVS one? >16:16 -!- ChrisWhite [n=chriswhi@gentoo/developer/ChrisWhite] has left #gentoo-dev [] >16:16 <@ferringb> yah, cvs/gid >16:22 <@tannewt> so basically some people would a like a prefix var to allow installs to various places? >16:23 <@ciaranm> tannewt: more or less, yes >16:25 <@tannewt> so what is the current attempt to solve this problem? >16:25 <@ciaranm> the current attempt is to throw something ill defined into portage and pray >16:25 <@tannewt> explain... >16:26 <@ciaranm> there's a patch floating around that changes a few things in portage to sort of vaguely do prefix >16:26 <@tannewt> why do you say its vaguely done? >16:26 -!- PreZWork [n=prez@71.5.65.66] has quit ["Goodbye cruel world!"] >16:27 <@ciaranm> because it doesn't attempt to deal with basic issues like "how ebuilds will support it" >16:28 <@dostrow_work> or the fact that to do it right it would have to support multiple potential "directory stuctures" for targets (especially with regard to things getting installed into ~) >16:28 -!- kerframil is now known as kerframil_ >16:28 <@ferringb> dostrow_work: prefix offset vs prefix targets (ciaran's home) >16:28 <@ciaranm> oh, the "install to ~" thing isn't a big deal either way >16:28 <@ferringb> there is a difference. >16:28 <@tannewt> so you are saying portage will be able to handle it, how will the individual ebuilds handle it >16:28 <@tannewt> ferringb explain >16:29 <@ciaranm> tannewt: i'm saying i don't give a rat's ass about portage until basic stuff like "how the ebuilds will work" is figured out >16:29 -!- dostrow_work [n=dostrow@gentoo/developer/dostrow] has quit ["Homeward bound"] >16:29 <@ciaranm> the "install to ~" thing *probably* won't be that difficult to add on to a proper "install with prefix" solution. but it's not exactly a major concern anyway >16:29 <@ferringb> tannewt: either you're shifting everything a couple of dirs in, or you're getting into "I want my vim plugins installed in home, core installed here, etc" >16:29 <@ferringb> the point of all of this is that ebuild modifications are required. >16:30 <@ferringb> bitching about a porage patch that makes it easier to test the changes, and try and get everything ironed out is stupid. >16:30 <@tannewt> ciaranm, so you'd like to see definition of the ebuild effect? >16:30 <@tannewt> ferringb, so multiple vairables for a singel ebuild? >16:30 <@ciaranm> tannewt: i want to see a propsal and justification for the ebuild side of things, along with mock ebuilds for many of the core system packages that show what it'll look like >16:31 <@tannewt> ciaranm, okay, is it true as I understand, that you are worried that many many ebuilds will need to be modified? >16:31 <@ferringb> proposal is kind of pointless if you don't know if it's going to work. >16:31 <@ferringb> proposal + prototype == able to judge it. >16:32 <@ferringb> but... a proposal must be made first, so no prototype >16:32 <@tannewt> ferringb, I think both points need to be considered >16:32 <@ferringb> but to test it, and know what must be proposed, you need a prototype >16:32 <@ferringb> welcome to cyclical hell. >16:32 <@ciaranm> tannewt: no no. i'm worried that many ebuilds will need excessive modifications >16:32 <@ciaranm> you don't need full portage support to test basic ebuild changes >16:32 <+ReJ> ferringb: I think that's called creation. >16:32 <@tannewt> ciaranm, okay could you give me an example? >16:33 <+ReJ> Or maybe even procreation/recreation. >16:33 <@ferringb> ReJ: it's development. >16:33 <@tannewt> ferringb, what are your concerns about making it work? >16:33 <@kito> or maybe even abortion. >16:33 <@ferringb> tannewt: a clean solution. >16:33 <@ferringb> tannewt: just read the thread. >16:34 <@ferringb> ciaran is worried about excessive modifications, and wants others to put forth a proposal, well, tough cookies. >16:34 <@tannewt> ferringb, I am, but I have a limited knowledge of portage >16:34 <@ferringb> need to test it out and verify you've covered all the bases >16:34 <@ferringb> a spec/proposal is pointless if it hasn't been verified to at least be sane. >16:34 <@ferringb> so... people are going to create the prototype >16:34 <@tannewt> ferringb, provide a flexible solution? >16:34 <@ferringb> read the thread, you'll see he doesn't like it, not one bit. doesn't really matter, it's there time to spend doing it. >16:35 <@ferringb> tannewt: it's not even a question of a flexible solution >16:35 <@ferringb> attempting to even do *anything* prefix related == ciaran crawling up your ass. >16:35 <@ciaranm> it's a question of getting the basic *design* figured out before you go and waste time writing code that will need to be rewritten when you try to figure out how to implement the ebuild side of things >16:35 <@ferringb> read the thread, look up the previous "portage operating in an alternate prefix" thread in gentoo-dev, you'll see it occur. either you talk with him about it, or you just do it. >16:36 <@ciaranm> or worse yet, making a 'prototype', accepting it as real code and only then worrying about the ebuild mess >16:36 <@tannewt> hey hey hey, lets talk tech >16:36 <+ReJ> Sounds like a GLEP. Where is it? >16:36 <@ferringb> oy. >16:36 <@ferringb> ReJ: yah. write a glep without actually knowing what all of the modifications required are. smart. >16:36 <@ciaranm> ReJ: a GLEP would be a good start, yes >16:37 <@Flameeyes> ReJ, there's no point in doing a glep when you have no f*cking idea of how to do thing.. >16:37 <@tannewt> ciaranm, so you are worried experiemental code will be accepted as stable? >16:37 <@Flameeyes> that is like the f*cking GLEP22 that i'm going to SCRATCH >16:37 <@kito> ciaranm thats not what you told haubi >16:37 <+ReJ> Flameeyes: You could make a start on one. >16:37 <@kito> you hate the fact he evven wrote a GLEP DRAFT >16:37 <@kito> ReJalready been done >16:37 <+ReJ> kito: Great. >16:37 <@kito> not really >16:37 <+ReJ> So again, where is it? >16:37 <@kito> cuz it was done 8 months ago >16:37 -!- ferdy [n=ferdy@gentoo/developer/ferdy] has quit ["[IRSSI] We are Irssi of Borg. You will be assimilated. Using ircII is futile."] >16:37 <@ciaranm> it wasn't a decent GLEP, it was a list of irrelevant and insufficiently detailed mistakes >16:38 <@kito> ReJ burned in the endless cyclical ML threads >16:38 <+ReJ> So it's all worthless now? >16:38 <@Flameeyes> ReJ, not until you have a f*cking clue on how to do something.. the draft would sound "support alternate prefixes".. how? no clue! you need to find it before >16:38 <+ReJ> Flameeyes: I'd like a clue. I bet that *draft* would at least attempt to describe the outlines. >16:38 <@ciaranm> the draft would read "Goal: (...) Basic ebuild changes: (...) Solutions to the zillions of already pointed out issues: (...)" >16:38 <+ReJ> So again, where is it? >16:38 <@tannewt> ciaranm, would or should? >16:39 -!- HumpBack [n=sdcdcssc@gentoo/developer/HumpBack] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] >16:39 <@ciaranm> tomaw: should. the actual GLEP read "we will do x and it will give us y", where x was ill defined and y was something no-one wants anyway, and where x did not even lead to y >16:39 -!- cryos [n=cryos@gentoo/developer/cryos] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:39 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o cryos] by ChanServ >16:39 <@Flameeyes> ReJ, how can one immageine what to change when he has no idea how that would be managed? >16:39 <@ciaranm> the GLEP burned in mailing list threads because it was full of holes >16:39 <@Flameeyes> it's the glep22 thing... >16:40 <@ciaranm> Flameeyes: it's called 'design' >16:40 <+ReJ> Flameeyes: tx. >16:40 <@Flameeyes> ciaranm, fuck design, you have to see something work >16:40 <+ReJ> I didn't want to rummage through all 40+ of them... >16:40 <@ciaranm> Flameeyes: you don't have to get it perfect. you *do*, however, have to have a hell of a lot more than "we are going to build a rocket, and it will take us to mars" >16:40 <@ferringb> here's a simple summary. >16:40 <@ferringb> people can do whatever they want on their own time. >16:41 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you have no say over it. >16:41 <@ferringb> deal with it. >16:41 <@tannewt> seems to me that ferringb and Flameeyes and promoting a "logistics test" to see whats feasible and whats not >16:41 <@ferringb> ReJ: tannewt: a proposal would be put forth once people figure out wth is all required to make this sucker work. >16:41 <@Flameeyes> tannewt, yeah the keyword, "feasible", that's the point >16:41 <@ferringb> as I've stated multiple times, it's not mainline, if/when it's proposed it go mainline, tear it's ass anew then. >16:41 <@ferringb> don't start flaming on #-dev because you disagree with how others are spending your time. >16:42 <@ferringb> it's as simple as that. >16:42 <@ferringb> ciaranm: got it? >16:42 -!- jaervosz [n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz] has quit [Connection timed out] >16:42 <@tannewt> ciaranm, whats wrong with seeing if somethings feasible before doing the full blown plan? >16:42 <@ferringb> tannewt: because it is progress, bluntly. >16:42 <@ferringb> either way, we're doing it externally to nail it down. >16:42 <@ciaranm> ferringb: quit trolling and start solving the design flaws >16:43 <@kito> bwhahah >16:43 <@ferringb> ciaranm: I would be solving the design flaws, if I wasn't stuck defending even attempting to work on it due to you :) >16:43 <@ciaranm> tannewt: they're not "seeing if something's feasible", they're "writing an implementation before they know what the problem they're trying to solve is" >16:43 <@kito> un.believe.able. >16:43 <+ReJ> Can I take it that the ABSTRACT is supposed to rationalise the problem? >16:43 <@tannewt> ferringb, wasn't asking you >16:43 <@tannewt> ciaranm, how can you judge that? >16:43 <@ferringb> oy >16:43 <@Ramereth> tannewt: because he's ciaranm >16:43 * ferringb sighs, have fun. >16:43 <@kito> ciaranm whos 'they' and where is this 'implementation' 'they' are writing? >16:43 <@Ramereth> :) >16:43 <@tannewt> ack, I'm JUST asking HIM >16:44 <@ciaranm> tannewt: because i spent long enough looking at basic design issues on the area myself that i know of a huge number of problems that will be encountered that they aren't even attempting to solve, whilst at the same time throwing together code >16:45 -!- jaervosz [n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:45 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o jaervosz] by ChanServ >16:45 <@Ramereth> ciaranm: so let them waste their own time on it >16:45 <@ciaranm> first step in problem solving is to get a rough idea of what the goal is. second step is to figure out what some of the problems are likely to be. both of these steps are being ignored >16:45 <@tannewt> ciaranm, what problems are you thinking of? >16:46 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: and then when this code is about to be merged, and they do the whole "you should've complained earlier, if you want something else doing you have one week to make an alternative" thing again? >16:46 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@217.129.146.75] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:46 <@ciaranm> tannewt: see mailing list >16:47 <@tannewt> ciaranm, i'm looking but not following it very well >16:47 <@ciaranm> as it stands, simple questions like "roughly what will the ebuild for $foo look like once it's been changed?" and "how will you solve the problem of packages which use $bar looking in the wrong location for stuff?" are not answered yet >16:48 -!- kerframil_ is now known as kerframil >16:48 -!- leonardop [n=leonardo@gentoo/developer/leonardop] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:48 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o leonardop] by ChanServ >16:49 <@Ramereth> ciaranm: you're entirely making an assumption based on nothing because you're scared they won't listen to your opinion when that time comes >16:49 <@Ramereth> that's just a silly assumption.. Gentoo, we're all about trust around here >16:49 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: no, i'm basing it upon past experience >16:49 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: that, plus i'm trying to save huge amounts of wasted time >16:49 <@Ramereth> past experience doesnt' mean it'll happen again. some folks learn from past errors >16:49 <@spb> and some don't >16:49 <@ciaranm> and some don't, and are repeating them again and again >16:49 <@spb> </useless-comment> >16:50 <@Ramereth> so contribute instead of bickering like an old man >16:50 <@ciaranm> portage's #1 problem? it's a hideous hack. so what do they do? add more hacks! >16:50 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: i am contributing. to the *design* stage, which is where this thing should be right now >16:50 <@ferringb> *cough* rewrite you clown *cough* >16:50 <@ferringb> ciaranm: beyond that, you've got your own claimed rewrite. supplant us, chip in, or shut up. >16:50 <@spb> rewrite ciaranm ? >16:50 <@spb> scary thought >16:50 <@ferringb> too much talk for too little work from you ciaran. >16:51 <@Ramereth> anyways, too much ciaranm wasted time for me today.. i'm out >16:51 <+ReJ> Could someone point out, right now, a *specific* problem. Say, an ebuild that has all the markings of an ugly hack that exemplifies the "problem"? Otherwise, what *is* the problem? >16:51 <@tannewt> ferringb, how will what you are trying effect ebuilds? >16:51 -!- JoseJX [n=jjezak@c-67-171-66-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:51 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o JoseJX] by ChanServ >16:51 <@tannewt> ciaranm, okay that makes sense >16:51 <@ciaranm> ferringb: the talk avoids huge amounts of wasted time later cleaning up >16:52 <+ReJ> Or maybe a profile. >16:52 <@ferringb> tannewt: introduction of a prefix var, eautoreconf modifications for starters. >16:52 <@ferringb> tannewt: iron those out, and start working on it further. >16:52 <@ferringb> tannewt: you're not going to know just by trying it on a handful of ebuilds. >16:52 <@ciaranm> ReJ: simple example. i want an example of what the ebuilds for glibc, gcc, coreutils etc will look like. doesn't have to be exact, just a rough approximation >16:52 <@AllanonJL> dsd_: its fine for you to commit that ( #108175 ), with a revbump >16:53 <@ferringb> ciaranm: perhaps in your view, but from where I sit you're not accomplishing anything but pissing people off >16:53 <@AllanonJL> Flameeyes: you get my email a couple days ago? >16:53 <@tannewt> ferringb, true true but does everything need to be laid out before applying the concept to various ebuilds? >16:53 <@ferringb> tannewt: nope. >16:53 <@ciaranm> ferringb: well no, because you'd rather sit around and get pissed off than do some proper design >16:54 <@tannewt> ferringb, then why can't some examples be shown? >16:54 <@Flameeyes> AllanonJL, yep, but i want to be sure that they build on linux, so i was going to create a snapshot to compile gnome in... had a couple of problems with kde and visibility tho, so i had to stop in the middle >16:54 <@ferringb> christ almighty. >16:54 -!- gerrynjr [n=gerrynjr@gentoo/developer/gerrynjr] has joined #gentoo-dev >16:54 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o gerrynjr] by ChanServ >16:54 <@AllanonJL> Flameeyes: ah ok, just wondering :) >16:54 <@ferringb> tannewt: you likely don't know this, but people already have been using haubi's modifications for quite some time on their own. >16:54 <@Flameeyes> AllanonJL, i'll complete the chroot and the rest tomorrow (i hope) >16:55 <@ferringb> tannewt: you want examples? I'll poke one of them to tarball up their overlay. >16:55 <@AllanonJL> Flameeyes: sure thing, no rush >16:55 <@dsd_> AngusYoung: thanks, will do that >16:55 <@Flameeyes> AllanonJL, i'm also looking for help with the 2.12 patches, but it seems like nobody with fbsd wants to deal with that :P >16:55 <@ferringb> ciaranm: re: preferring to fight, I'll note that you're about the only one I fight with. >16:55 <+ReJ> The basic idea seems to be that you somehow gather up all kinds of meta-knowledge about how a specific platform will or should work and then somehow remove a lot of that work from the ebuilds and into a central part that pertains to that specific platform, right? >16:55 <@tannewt> ferringb, cool, any trouble with looking at those ebuilds ciaranm? >16:55 <@ferringb> course... everyone fights with you, although it could just be me. >16:56 <@tannewt> ferringb, drop it >16:56 <@ferringb> tannewt: not gonna happen. >16:56 <@AllanonJL> Flameeyes: thought you had some upcoming recruits? :P >16:56 <@ciaranm> tannewt: i've seen some of those already. i've also pointed out all the stuff they *don't* fix, which is currently being ignored >16:56 <@ferringb> he wants to look at the overlay, he can. I'm not going to sit back and be insulted and play nice however. >16:56 <@ferringb> ciaranm: which ones have you seen? >16:57 <@Flameeyes> AllanonJL, yep but nobody with gnome yet :P xfce, kde, commonbox.... but gnome have a bad reputation on fbsd (cause of ports maintainers mainly, i'd think) >16:57 <@ferringb> ciaranm: I assume that's where you pulled the /bin/sh example from if that's the case. >16:57 <+ReJ> ciaranm: Could you list those problems, or point to that list of problems? >16:57 <@tannewt> cairanm, is there a list of problems with the citations of the source? >16:57 <@ciaranm> ferringb: the ones i looked at were the ones for packages i maintain. and the /bin/sh example is so frickin' obvious it doesn't even need an example to see it >16:58 <@ciaranm> there's been a list sent to the mailing list several times >16:58 <@ferringb> that's not a list. >16:58 <@ferringb> ciaranm: produce a list, then we'll talk, ok? >16:58 <@tannewt> ciaranm, I'm dense link me to the ebuild >16:59 -!- upt1me [n=upt1me@68-112-109-139.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] >16:59 <@tannewt> ciaranm, fo rthe ebuilds? could you give me a specific example? >16:59 <@tannewt> ciaranm, why? >16:59 -!- FuzzyRay [n=pvarner@pool-71-96-238-191.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] >17:00 <@tannewt> ciaranm, which ebuild should I ask for? >17:00 <@kito> not that those would be very relevant anyway >17:00 -!- GurliOnTheRoad [n=GurliGeb@gurlinet.dk] has joined #gentoo-dev >17:00 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o GurliOnTheRoad] by ChanServ >17:00 <@tannewt> whats his/her email? >17:01 <@ciaranm> uh, see bug 87877 >17:01 <+GenBot> ciaranm: Bug 87877; "let portage work in different PREFIX, with packages to install in new PREFIX too"; [Portage Development :: Core]; {RESOLVED:LATER}; Michael Haubenwallner->Portage team; http://bugs.gentoo.org/87877 >17:02 <@tannewt> alright, I'll get those ebuilds >17:02 <@tannewt> I gotta run, be back on in ~2 hours >17:03 <@tannewt> thanks guys >17:03 -!- tannewt [n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt] has quit ["Leaving"]
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