15:36 <@vapier> ferringb: read http://rafb.net/paste/results/wzP70K11.html
15:36 <@Ticho> i never needed it
15:36 <@Cardoe> I'm not trying to use dmix
15:37 <@Cardoe> I just installed ALSA
15:37 <@dragonheart> robbat2: want me to look at the bacula sec bug = I was just going to backport the script to the 1.36.3 version
15:37 <@ferringb> vapier: pretty simple, ain't it?
15:37 <@ferringb> vapier: guessing that means you like flamey's idea?
15:37 <@vapier> ferringb: err, i proposed this idea a while ago and you said no :P
15:38 <@ferringb> oh
15:38 <@ferringb> well I'm an idiot
15:38 <@vapier> i know
15:38 <@ferringb> vapier: you know well enough not to listen to me...
15:38 <@vapier> i didnt care enough at the time to argue the point :P
15:38 <@ferringb> heh
15:38 <@ciaranm> it's ok, ferringb doesn't argue points anyway. he just accuses you of trying to sabotage things
15:39 <@ferringb> hmm.  downside is that profiles still need to provide those settings for backwards compatibility
15:39 <@ferringb> ciaranm: hey now
15:39 <@ferringb> you said I wrote well written rhetoric once upon a time
15:39 <@ferringb> give me some credit
15:39 <@ciaranm> you do. it's still just rhetoric though
15:39 <@vapier> ferringb: you sound like a chick
15:39  * bonsaikitten wonders what drugs are in the water this week
15:39 <@ferringb> ciaranm: and you're capable of nothing but running your mouth.
15:39 <@ferringb> we all have our deficiencies.
15:40  * vapier waits for the makeup sex
15:40 <@bonsaikitten> mmmh
15:40 <@Flameeyes> ok so i'm not completely an idiot, yet? :P
15:40 <@ferringb> vapier: Flameeyes: open a bug about it
15:40 <@vapier> Flameeyes: speak when spoken to wh0re
15:40 <@Spider> ciaranm: hmm,  afaik. pastor chick is quite renown for his skills....
15:40 <@Spider> *Grins*
15:40 <@ferringb> don't think jason will complain, but worth checking
15:40 <@bonsaikitten> Flameeyes, sssh, the grownups are talking, be silent ;-)
15:40 <@Flameeyes> vapier, i should speak when they speak to you?
15:40 <@ciaranm> vapier: unlikely. ferringb's planning to unleash a plague of biblical proportions again
15:40 <@ferringb> ugh.
15:40 <@ferringb> ciaranm: it's external
15:40 <@ferringb> get a fucking life, bluntly.
15:41 -!- tannewt [n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt] has joined #gentoo-dev
15:41 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o tannewt] by ChanServ
15:41 <@eradicator|soda> vapier: hey... what's the --with-sysroot=${PREFIX}/${CTARGET} in toolchain.eclass for... it breaks emerges of 3.4.4 crosscompilers here.  do you need that for 4.x or something?
15:41 <@vapier> language, this is a family environment !
15:41 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you have no say over how others spend their time, so kidnly recall that.
15:41 <@ciaranm> ferringb: and then when it's about to go internal, you'll use the "you should've said something earlier" line
15:41 <@ferringb> *kindly
15:41 <@vapier> eradicator: works fine for me
15:41 <@ferringb> ciaranm: nope.
15:41 <@vapier> tested mips/sh/arm
15:41 <@bonsaikitten> ciaranm, you didn't say anything except "it won't work, you suck"
15:41 <@Flameeyes> vapier, you're going to open that bug then? :P
15:41 <@vapier> it was needed to get mips abi properly working again
15:41 <@ciaranm> ferringb: we've been through this before. since all you have to do is get 50% of the votes on a council where 50% of the people will vote yes on everything, it'll go through
15:42 <@vapier> Flameeyes: nah just file a new one
15:42 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: actually, i explained where the problems are right at the start
15:42 <@eradicator|soda> vapier: well, it causes this: http://dev.gentoo.org/~eradicator/cross
15:42 <@bonsaikitten> ciaranm, i remember the "it's pvdabeels fault" part ...
15:42 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: at least, some of the problems. there'll be others, but they're not so obvious
15:42 <@vapier> eradicator: re-emerge your glibc, the ebuild has been updated to provide those symlinks
15:42 <@ferringb> ciaranm: considering you've seen no code, I suggest you bite your tongue and wait.
15:42 <@johnm> dsd_: ah very cool
15:42 <@vapier> you should have a /usr/$CTARGET/usr symlink to .
15:42 <@johnm> hah.. just found out my g/f does Mark Shuttleworth's accounts. (he has too much money!)
15:43 <@ciaranm> ferringb: i've seen the thing claiming to be the design, which is more than enough
15:43 <@vapier> lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root 1 Aug 28 21:16 /usr/sh4-unknown-linux-gnu/usr -> .
15:43 <@eradicator|soda> that's a bit ugly, imo
15:43 <@vapier> lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root 7 Aug 28 21:16 /usr/sh4-unknown-linux-gnu/sys-include -> include
15:43 <@ferringb> ciaranm: 'k.  well, either way, like I said, external.  again, you have no say.
15:43 <@vapier> what's your point ?
15:43 <@vapier> if you feel like patching the sources of gcc/glibc/binutils, feel free
15:43 <@ferringb> deal with it, but harassment isn't dealing with it.
15:44 <@ciaranm> ferringb: and when it comes to merge time, "it's already written, so you have no say". and when it hits the tree "it's too late to change things now"
15:44 <@eradicator|soda> it works fine without --with-sysroot
15:44 <@bonsaikitten> ciaranm, so write it yourself ...
15:44 <@eradicator|soda> so why was it added?  Was something broken that adding it fixed?
15:44 <@vapier> sure, if you dont want abi support
15:44 <@ferringb> ciaranm: take off your tinfoil hat.
15:44 <@bonsaikitten> kids these days, only whining but can't even do anything without mommy
15:44 <@vapier> with the sysroot feature, mips n32/n64 works now
15:44 <@eradicator|soda> ah ok
15:44 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: i don't think anyone's come up with a satisfactory *design* yet. far to early to start talking about code
15:45 <@ferringb> ciaranm: alright,  here's a design.
15:45 <@ChrisWhite> eradicator|soda: |soda?
15:45 <@ferringb> we add a $PREFIX var.
15:45 <@ferringb> we make portage function in an offset.
15:45 <@eradicator|soda> ChrisWhite: the location of my office
15:45 <@ferringb> ciaranm: we then fix the required tools for building so it works, and work on ebuilds.
15:45 <@Chainsaw> bonsaikitten: You are trying to acquire constructive critisism from ciaranm. Expect to spend more time then this before it comes out, if at all.
15:45 <@soulse-> dsd_: ping
15:45 <@Cardoe> Ticho:
15:45 <@Cardoe>  * Starting Music Player Daemon ...
15:45 <@Cardoe> problems shmget'ing
15:45 <@ChrisWhite> eradicator|soda: your office is in a soda can o_O
15:45 <@ciaranm> ferringb: three lines is not a design for something this complicated. three lines isn't enough for an executive summary
15:45 <@ferringb> ciaranm: write out a fucking spec then.
15:46 <@ferringb> I'm not.
15:46 <@ciaranm> neither am i, because i'm not claiming to have a solution
15:46 <@ferringb> oy.  round and round.
15:46 <@bonsaikitten> Chainsaw, as long as he's yelling at me you have more time to do useful stuff ;-)
15:47 <@dsd_> soulse-: pong
15:47 <@Cardoe> net-www/apache-2.0.54-r31  -apache2
15:47 <@bonsaikitten> ciaranm, so it doesn't work because nobody has done this before? :-)
15:47 <@Cardoe> Anyone have ANY clue why the Apache 2 ebuild has an "apache2" USE flag?
15:47 <@Cardoe> WTF!?
15:47 <@eradicator|soda> ChrisWhite: Soda Hall.  It's named after a guy who donated a ton of money
15:47 <@ferringb> bonsaikitten: stop.
15:47 <@Ticho> Cardoe: http://pastebin.com/385485
15:47 <@Chainsaw> Cardoe: Yeah, cool, isn't it?
15:47 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: er, no. it won't work because basic and obvious flaws haven't been solved yet
15:47 <@Cardoe> Chainsaw: someone on crack eh?
15:47 <@Chainsaw> Cardoe: It tells the ebuild whether to install to apache1 or apache2 locations, apparently.
15:47 <@Chainsaw> Cardoe: I had quite a 'wtf' moment too, when I saw that.
15:48 <@bonsaikitten> Cardoe, arts could be built with USE="-arts"  :-)
15:48 -!- NightMonkey [n=NightMon@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/NightMonkey] has joined #gentoo-dev
15:48 <@ciaranm> bonsaikitten: it's like worrying whether or not your pencil will work on the moon when you don't have a spacecraft yet
15:48 <+ReJ> G apache2 - Chooses Apache2 support when a package supports both Apache1 and Apache2
15:48 <@latexer> anybody know which split xorg package has sessreg?
15:48 <@Cardoe> Ticho: so why is that failing?
15:48 <@Ticho> Cardoe: no clue
15:48 -!- beejay is now known as beejay|off
15:48 <+beejay|off> night.
15:49 <@axxo> you can start making a space-inc-pen though
15:49 <@ChrisWhite> eradicator|soda: hmmm.. soda as a last name.. that must work great for parties :p
15:49 <@Cardoe> latexer: xdm might
15:49 -!- pYrania_ [n=pyrania@gentoo/developer/pYrania] has joined #gentoo-dev
15:49 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o pYrania_] by ChanServ
15:49 <@Cardoe> latexer: but it doesn't look like it's in Gentoo yet.
15:49 <@latexer> Cardoe: hrm...
15:49 <@Cardoe> workspace/modular-x/app/sessreg
15:50 <@Cardoe> my CVS checkout
15:50 <@Cardoe> It's split off as it's own app
15:50 <@kito> ciaranm so the 'major flaws' you keep referring to, this is the autotools problem you mentioned?
15:50 <+ReJ> SODA = Small office down alley
15:50 <@ciaranm> kito: that's one of them. sadly it's far from the only one
15:50 -!- jaervosz [n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz] has quit [Connection timed out]
15:50 <@latexer> Cardoe: are the ebuilds for the split stuff that messy to create?
15:51 <@kito> ciaranm being vague doesn't help
15:51 -!- jaervosz [n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz] has joined #gentoo-dev
15:51 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o jaervosz] by ChanServ
15:51 <@Cardoe> latexer: not really.
15:51 <@ciaranm> kito: i already posted a huge list way back when this first started
15:51 <@kito> ciaranm lots of other projects have dealt with most of these problems. We can do it better
15:51 <@Cardoe> latexer: just gotta see if they've packaged up the app themselves.
15:51 <@latexer> Cardoe: i need to checkout to create the tarballs i'd assume though.
15:51 <@kito> ciaranm in haubis original thread?
15:51 <@Cardoe> latexer: yeah if they didn't make a tarball yet you will... that'll be the toughest part
15:51 <@ciaranm> kito: other projects do not attempt to handle situations like "there is a broken foo in /usr/bin and a working foo in /usr/gentoo/bin/"
15:52 <@latexer> Cardoe: well, here goes nothing.. (:
15:52 <@kito> ciaranm wrong.
15:52 <@ciaranm> kito: they rely upon PATH. PATH is insufficient
15:52 <@kito> wrong again.
15:52 <@kito> there is no silver bullet
15:53 <@ciaranm> of course there's no silver bullet. there is, however, something better than a sharpened stick
15:53 <@kito> yeap
15:53 <@kito> so lets do it, and stop dancing
15:53 <@ciaranm> and the current plan is a blunt, snapped twig
15:53 <@kito> if you want to design more, lets design
15:53 <@kito> ciaranm if you want to help, help
15:53 <@kito> if you don't, don't
15:53 <@ciaranm> kito: i am helping, by saving you from wasting hundreds of man hours on something that's totally wrong
15:53 <@kito> hahah
15:53 <@kito> 'totally wrong'
15:54 <@kito> what are you basing this on?
15:54 <@kito> haubis patches I presume
15:54 <@Cardoe> latexer: lemme know how it goes.
15:54 <@Cardoe> I need to head to work right now
15:54 <@Cardoe> latexer: but I'll give you a hand tonight if ya want
15:54 <@ciaranm> the patches to portage are a minor concern
15:54 <@ferringb> heh
15:54 <@ferringb> again, ignorance displayed.
15:54 <@kito> that doesn't make any sense
15:54 <@ciaranm> the main issue is not portage support. it's ebuild support
15:55 <@kito> ciaranm ok, no where are we?
15:55 <@kito> s/no/now/
15:55 -!- kerin_ [i=kerin@dial81-131-136-69.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #gentoo-dev
15:55 <@ciaranm> kito: right now? you're assuming "we can do this magic stuff with a few vars and everything will work"
15:55 <@kito> whos assuming what?
15:55 <@kito> you are the only making assumptions
15:55 -!- kerframil [i=kerin@gentoo/user/kerframil] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
15:56 <@ciaranm> no, i'm the one not making assumptions
15:56 <@kito> in one breath, you say 'don't code, design', in the next breath you say ' the only sane way to approach it is patch ebuild.sh and tweak existing ebuilds'
15:56 -!- kerin_ [i=kerin@dial81-131-136-69.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #gentoo-dev []
15:57 -!- kerframil [i=kerin@gentoo/user/kerframil] has joined #gentoo-dev
15:57 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+v kerframil] by ChanServ
15:57 <@ciaranm> fact: you will need to modify ebuilds to handle it
15:57 <@kito> check.
15:57 <@kito> keep going.
15:57 <@ciaranm> fact: there are an awful lot of ebuilds that are worked on by an awful lot of people
15:57 -!- JoseJX [n=jjezak@c-67-171-66-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:57 <@kito> check.
15:57 <@kito> keep going.
15:58 <@ciaranm> fact: any ebuild changes which require nasty hacks will be rejected by many developers
15:58 <@kito> check.
15:58 <@ciaranm> fact: any ebuild changes required which are non-trivial will introduce a heck of a lot of bugs
15:58 <@Flameeyes> Cardoe, what was the keys to check the delay from mplayer
15:58 <@kito> ok captain obvious
15:59 <@kito> I'm still not seeing any new info
15:59 <@hansmi> Flameeyes: look at input.conf
15:59 <@ciaranm> conclusion: based upon said facts, ignoring the ebuild side of things is damned stupid
15:59 <@kito> ciaranm where on earth are you gathering ebuilds are going to be ignored?
15:59 <@Flameeyes> hansmi, make sense
16:00 <@ciaranm> kito: read the list. everyone is running around trying to fix portage before they've decided how the ebuild side will work
16:00 <@kito> ciaranm who is everyone?
16:00 <@kito> random people outside of gentoo?
16:00 <@kito> who cares about them
16:00 <@kito> no one is trying to 'fix' anything
16:00 <@ciaranm> heh. didn't you notice gentoo-alt basing its future upon "there will be prefixed installs"?
16:01 <@kito> who cares
16:01 <@ferringb> gentoo-alt isn't gentoo-osx, nor is gentoo-osx basing it's future upon it.
16:01 <@ciaranm> as one of the many people who will end up having to deal with the cleanup when the shit hits the fan, i'd say i care
16:01 <@kito> they can base it on whatever they want, that doesn't change trying to design this thing right
16:02 <@kito> ciaranm dude. stop being dense. You are smarter than this
16:02 <@kito> its in an overlay for starters
16:02 <@kito> and its in fact , following your exact proposal
16:02 <@ciaranm> you know how it goes. once there's code, it gets accepted with "if you don't want us to use this, come up with something better by next week"
16:02 <@kito> this is true
16:02 <@Flameeyes> ciaranm, gentoo-alt is no more pvdabeel, you know that as first?
16:02 <@kito> but tehre is no hurry, and noone making /. announcments this time
16:03 <@ciaranm> Flameeyes: uh huh
16:03 <@kito> we can take as long as needed
16:03 <@Flameeyes> ciaranm, so thank you, don't think gentoo-alt is the sme it was before
16:03 <@kito> thats neither here nor there
16:03 <@kito> separate topic entirely
16:03 <@ciaranm> Flameeyes: i'm reading what gentoo alt (in particular, osx) people are saying
16:04 <@kito> stop making this political, and keep it tech related
16:04 <@kito> ciaranm WHO CARES
16:04 <@kito> they aren't doing the work
16:04 <@Flameeyes> [23:01] <ciaranm> heh. didn't you notice gentoo-alt basing its future upon "there will be prefixed installs"?
16:04 <@kito> let them say what they want
16:04 <@latexer> Cardoe: argh... sessreg in apps/ has no sessreg.c or sessreg manpage.
16:05 -!- alech_k [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:05 <@ciaranm> kito: so that when this mess is 'ready', ferringb can say "if you wanted to object, you should've done so earlier. you have one week to produce a better alternative or this gets merged"?
16:05 -!- pYrania [n=pyrania@gentoo/developer/pYrania] has quit [Success]
16:05 -!- alech_k [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit]
16:06 <@kito> ciaranm fine, that has nothing todo with gentoo-alt or gentoo-osx or gentoo-8088
16:06 <@kito> lets move on
16:06 -!- alech [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:06 -!- alech [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #gentoo-dev []
16:07 <@ciaranm> kito: you've not been reading grobian's emails, eh?
16:07 -!- alech [n=alex@p54AD4CCC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:07 <@kito> ciaranm sure I have. But I still don't see that as being relevant to getting a design
16:07 <@kito> explain to me how that works
16:07 <@Ramereth> kito: he's just bored and being a troll like usual ;-)
16:08 <@ferringb> heh
16:08 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: no, i'm trying to help various people avoid wasting huge amounts of time on something that isn't going to work in its current form
16:08 -!- Hydrogen [n=hydrogen@londonderry-cuda2-68-171-252-188.lndnnh.adelphia.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:08 <@Ramereth> kito: easy solution to your problem /ignore ciaranm
16:08 <@ferringb> Ramereth: no, see, you're not liking what you're hearing, and making attacks
16:08 <@ferringb> :)
16:08 <@latexer> Cardoe: ok, w(here)tf do all the files for app/s come from? all of them seem to have no souce files.
16:08 <@latexer> source*
16:08 <@kito> ciaranm thats the thing, you keep saying there is some huge direction already being taken
16:08 <+ReJ> Hey, people. Nice 'discussion'. Sounds interesting. What's it about?
16:08 <@Ramereth> ferringb: oh right, i don't know all the facts and i'm attacking him
16:08 <@kito> which is wrong
16:08 <@latexer> Josh_B: ping.
16:08 <@Flameeyes> i hate re-shifting in place video, i can't even get it right :/
16:09 <@ciaranm> kito: ...and then when said patches are up for merged, it turns into "you should've said something earlier on, it's too late now"
16:09 <@bonsaikitten> Ramereth, query-ping - got a minute?
16:09 <@Ramereth> bonsaikitten: sure
16:10 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you didn't say anything when we decided we were going to do this externally, so it's too late to comment on it now.
16:10 <@ferringb> ciaranm: it's a stupid point.  you're trolling to block people from doing something on that point, kindly stop.
16:11 <@ferringb> go get drunk or something
16:11 <@johnm> ciaranm: question... wondered if you can help.
16:11 <@ciaranm> ferringb: no no no. i'm trying to help some very stubborn and naive people to get it done properly
16:11 <@johnm> ciaranm: rxvt-unicode... why doesn't it accept the pound key.. any ideas?
16:11 <@ciaranm> johnm: £££
16:11 <@johnm> ciaranm: it only bitches when I ssh to another box, and run screen
16:11 <@ciaranm> johnm: are you inside screen or somesuch?
16:11 <@johnm> ciaranm: right.
16:11 -!- sesamebike [n=sesamebi@c83-250-24-85.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:11 <@ferringb> ciaranm: bluntly, nobody wants your help.
16:11 <@ciaranm> johnm: screen needs to be run in unicode mode
16:12 <@ferringb> ciaranm: the social cost of it is far to high for any claimed technical benefits
16:12 <@johnm> ciaranm: .conf/flag?
16:12 <@ferringb> ciaranm: as I said once already.  kindly leave those alone who are attempting it, then rail their asses when they go to merge if it sucks.
16:12 <@johnm> ah, -U
16:12 <@johnm> thanks
16:12 <@ferringb> otherwise you're harassing people, and it's getting old.
16:12 <@ciaranm> ferringb: translation: "we have our heads stuck up our asses and we like to keep it that way"
16:12 <@ciaranm> johnm: there is a config option... slarti knows it
16:12 <@ferringb> harassing... people...
16:12 <@ferringb> as I said, go get drunk or something, control yourself.
16:13 <@kito> ciaranm more like "I can't stand another second of pointless cyclical discussion'
16:13 <@ciaranm> design... discussion...
16:13 -!- hydrogen [n=hydrogen@londonderry-cuda2-68-171-252-188.lndnnh.adelphia.net] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:13 <@ferringb> you're not changing anyone's opinions via this route.
16:13 <+ReJ> johnm: 'defutf8 on' in your [.]screenrc
16:13 -!- tove [n=tove@p54A60868.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["leaving"]
16:13 <@ciaranm> ferringb: how much is going to have to get broken before you learn?
16:14 <@tannewt> ferringb, ciaranm, and kito stop wasting your time insulting each other
16:14 <@tannewt> whats the problem?
16:14 <@ferringb> ugh
16:14 <@ferringb> tannewt: go read gentoo-porage-dev, read your back buffer, then join in.
16:14 <@johnm> ReJ: awesome.. thanks
16:14 <@ciaranm> tannewt: the problem, simply put, is that certain people don't have a frickin' clue how to design software
16:14 <+ReJ> johnm: yw
16:15 <@Flameeyes> tannewt, translate that as "they want to fight just for the sake of it"
16:15 <@tannewt> ciaranm, thats not the problem, thats your opinion
16:15 <@ciaranm> tannewt: no no, that's an easily verifiable fact
16:15 <@bonsaikitten> lol
16:16 <@tannewt> ferringb, whats the thread name?
16:16 <@Flameeyes> the next "fact" i hear that, i'm going to put a biiig ignore on #gentoo-dev, that's for everyone, kthnx, i have enough work to do
16:16 <@ferringb> tannewt: pretty easy to spot.  just look for the most recent thread
16:16 <@tannewt> ferringb, the CVS one?
16:16 -!- ChrisWhite [n=chriswhi@gentoo/developer/ChrisWhite] has left #gentoo-dev []
16:16 <@ferringb> yah, cvs/gid
16:22 <@tannewt> so basically some people would a like a prefix var to allow installs to various places?
16:23 <@ciaranm> tannewt: more or less, yes
16:25 <@tannewt> so what is the current attempt to solve this problem?
16:25 <@ciaranm> the current attempt is to throw something ill defined into portage and pray
16:25 <@tannewt> explain...
16:26 <@ciaranm> there's a patch floating around that changes a few things in portage to sort of vaguely do prefix
16:26 <@tannewt> why do you say its vaguely done?
16:26 -!- PreZWork [n=prez@71.5.65.66] has quit ["Goodbye cruel world!"]
16:27 <@ciaranm> because it doesn't attempt to deal with basic issues like "how ebuilds will support it"
16:28 <@dostrow_work> or the fact that to do it right it would have to support multiple potential "directory stuctures" for targets (especially with regard to things getting installed into ~)
16:28 -!- kerframil is now known as kerframil_
16:28 <@ferringb> dostrow_work: prefix offset vs prefix targets (ciaran's home)
16:28 <@ciaranm> oh, the "install to ~" thing isn't a big deal either way
16:28 <@ferringb> there is a difference.
16:28 <@tannewt> so you are saying portage will be able to handle it, how will the individual ebuilds handle it
16:28 <@tannewt> ferringb explain
16:29 <@ciaranm> tannewt: i'm saying i don't give a rat's ass about portage until basic stuff like "how the ebuilds will work" is figured out
16:29 -!- dostrow_work [n=dostrow@gentoo/developer/dostrow] has quit ["Homeward bound"]
16:29 <@ciaranm> the "install to ~" thing *probably* won't be that difficult to add on to a proper "install with prefix" solution. but it's not exactly a major concern anyway
16:29 <@ferringb> tannewt: either you're shifting everything a couple of dirs in, or you're getting into "I want my vim plugins installed in home, core installed here, etc"
16:29 <@ferringb> the point of all of this is that ebuild modifications are required.
16:30 <@ferringb> bitching about a porage patch that makes it easier to test the changes, and try and get everything ironed out is stupid.
16:30 <@tannewt> ciaranm, so you'd like to see definition of the ebuild effect?
16:30 <@tannewt> ferringb, so multiple vairables for a singel ebuild?
16:30 <@ciaranm> tannewt: i want to see a propsal and justification for the ebuild side of things, along with mock ebuilds for many of the core system packages that show what it'll look like
16:31 <@tannewt> ciaranm, okay, is it true as I understand, that you are worried that many many ebuilds will need to be modified?
16:31 <@ferringb> proposal is kind of pointless if you don't know if it's going to work.
16:31 <@ferringb> proposal + prototype == able to judge it.
16:32 <@ferringb> but... a proposal must be made first, so no prototype
16:32 <@tannewt> ferringb, I think both points need to be considered
16:32 <@ferringb> but to test it, and know what must be proposed, you need a prototype
16:32 <@ferringb> welcome to cyclical hell.
16:32 <@ciaranm> tannewt: no no. i'm worried that many ebuilds will need excessive modifications
16:32 <@ciaranm> you don't need full portage support to test basic ebuild changes
16:32 <+ReJ> ferringb: I think that's called creation.
16:32 <@tannewt> ciaranm, okay could you give me an example?
16:33 <+ReJ> Or maybe even procreation/recreation.
16:33 <@ferringb> ReJ: it's development.
16:33 <@tannewt> ferringb, what are your concerns about making it work?
16:33 <@kito> or maybe even abortion.
16:33 <@ferringb> tannewt: a clean solution.  
16:33 <@ferringb> tannewt: just read the thread.
16:34 <@ferringb> ciaran is worried about excessive modifications, and wants others to put forth a proposal, well, tough cookies.
16:34 <@tannewt> ferringb, I am, but I have a limited knowledge of portage
16:34 <@ferringb> need to test it out and verify you've covered all the bases
16:34 <@ferringb> a spec/proposal is pointless if it hasn't been verified to at least be sane.
16:34 <@ferringb> so... people are going to create the prototype
16:34 <@tannewt> ferringb, provide a flexible solution?
16:34 <@ferringb> read the thread, you'll see he doesn't like it, not one bit.  doesn't really matter, it's there time to spend doing it.
16:35 <@ferringb> tannewt: it's not even a question of a flexible solution
16:35 <@ferringb> attempting to even do *anything* prefix related == ciaran crawling up your ass.
16:35 <@ciaranm> it's a question of getting the basic *design* figured out before you go and waste time writing code that will need to be rewritten when you try to figure out how to implement the ebuild side of things
16:35 <@ferringb> read the thread, look up the previous "portage operating in an alternate prefix" thread in gentoo-dev, you'll see it occur.  either you talk with him about it, or you just do it.
16:36 <@ciaranm> or worse yet, making a 'prototype', accepting it as real code and only then worrying about the ebuild mess
16:36 <@tannewt> hey hey hey, lets talk tech
16:36 <+ReJ> Sounds like a GLEP. Where is it?
16:36 <@ferringb> oy.
16:36 <@ferringb> ReJ: yah.  write a glep without actually knowing what all of the modifications required are.  smart.
16:36 <@ciaranm> ReJ: a GLEP would be a good start, yes
16:37 <@Flameeyes> ReJ, there's no point in doing a glep when you have no f*cking idea of how to do thing..
16:37 <@tannewt> ciaranm, so you are worried experiemental code will be accepted as stable?
16:37 <@Flameeyes> that is like the f*cking GLEP22 that i'm going to SCRATCH
16:37 <@kito> ciaranm thats not what you told haubi
16:37 <+ReJ> Flameeyes: You could make a start on one.
16:37 <@kito> you hate the fact he evven wrote a GLEP DRAFT
16:37 <@kito> ReJalready been done
16:37 <+ReJ> kito: Great.
16:37 <@kito> not really
16:37 <+ReJ> So again, where is it?
16:37 <@kito> cuz it was done 8 months ago
16:37 -!- ferdy [n=ferdy@gentoo/developer/ferdy] has quit ["[IRSSI] We are Irssi of Borg. You will be assimilated. Using ircII is futile."]
16:37 <@ciaranm> it wasn't a decent GLEP, it was a list of irrelevant and insufficiently detailed mistakes
16:38 <@kito> ReJ burned in the endless cyclical ML threads
16:38 <+ReJ> So it's all worthless now?
16:38 <@Flameeyes> ReJ, not until you have a f*cking clue on how to do something.. the draft would sound "support alternate prefixes".. how? no clue! you need to find it before
16:38 <+ReJ> Flameeyes: I'd like a clue. I bet that *draft* would at least attempt to describe the outlines.
16:38 <@ciaranm> the draft would read "Goal: (...) Basic ebuild changes: (...) Solutions to the zillions of already pointed out issues: (...)"
16:38 <+ReJ> So again, where is it?
16:38 <@tannewt> ciaranm, would or should?
16:39 -!- HumpBack [n=sdcdcssc@gentoo/developer/HumpBack] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
16:39 <@ciaranm> tomaw: should. the actual GLEP read "we will do x and it will give us y", where x was ill defined and y was something no-one wants anyway, and where x did not even lead to y
16:39 -!- cryos [n=cryos@gentoo/developer/cryos] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:39 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o cryos] by ChanServ
16:39 <@Flameeyes> ReJ, how can one immageine what to change when he has no idea how that would be managed?
16:39 <@ciaranm> the GLEP burned in mailing list threads because it was full of holes
16:39 <@Flameeyes> it's the glep22 thing...
16:40 <@ciaranm> Flameeyes: it's called 'design'
16:40 <+ReJ> Flameeyes: tx.
16:40 <@Flameeyes> ciaranm, fuck design, you have to see something work
16:40 <+ReJ> I didn't want to rummage through all 40+ of them...
16:40 <@ciaranm> Flameeyes: you don't have to get it perfect. you *do*, however, have to have a hell of a lot more than "we are going to build a rocket, and it will take us to mars"
16:40 <@ferringb> here's a simple summary.
16:40 <@ferringb> people can do whatever they want on their own time.
16:41 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you have no say over it.
16:41 <@ferringb> deal with it.
16:41 <@tannewt> seems to me that ferringb and Flameeyes and promoting a "logistics test" to see whats feasible and whats not
16:41 <@ferringb> ReJ: tannewt: a proposal would be put forth once people figure out wth is all required to make this sucker work.
16:41 <@Flameeyes> tannewt, yeah the keyword, "feasible", that's the point
16:41 <@ferringb> as I've stated multiple times, it's not mainline, if/when it's proposed it go mainline, tear it's ass anew then.
16:41 <@ferringb> don't start flaming on #-dev because you disagree with how others are spending your time.
16:42 <@ferringb> it's as simple as that.
16:42 <@ferringb> ciaranm: got it?
16:42 -!- jaervosz [n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz] has quit [Connection timed out]
16:42 <@tannewt> ciaranm, whats wrong with seeing if somethings feasible before doing the full blown plan?
16:42 <@ferringb> tannewt: because it is progress, bluntly.
16:42 <@ferringb> either way, we're doing it externally to nail it down.
16:42 <@ciaranm> ferringb: quit trolling and start solving the design flaws
16:43 <@kito> bwhahah
16:43 <@ferringb> ciaranm: I would be solving the design flaws, if I wasn't stuck defending even attempting to work on it due to you :)
16:43 <@ciaranm> tannewt: they're not "seeing if something's feasible", they're "writing an implementation before they know what the problem they're trying to solve is"
16:43 <@kito> un.believe.able.
16:43 <+ReJ> Can I take it that the ABSTRACT is supposed to rationalise the problem?
16:43 <@tannewt> ferringb, wasn't asking you
16:43 <@tannewt> ciaranm, how can you judge that?
16:43 <@ferringb> oy
16:43 <@Ramereth> tannewt: because he's ciaranm
16:43  * ferringb sighs, have fun.
16:43 <@kito> ciaranm whos 'they' and where is this 'implementation' 'they' are writing?
16:43 <@Ramereth> :)
16:43 <@tannewt> ack, I'm JUST asking HIM
16:44 <@ciaranm> tannewt: because i spent long enough looking at basic design issues on the area myself that i know of a huge number of problems that will be encountered that they aren't even attempting to solve, whilst at the same time throwing together code
16:45 -!- jaervosz [n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:45 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o jaervosz] by ChanServ
16:45 <@Ramereth> ciaranm: so let them waste their own time on it
16:45 <@ciaranm> first step in problem solving is to get a rough idea of what the goal is. second step is to figure out what some of the problems are likely to be. both of these steps are being ignored
16:45 <@tannewt> ciaranm, what problems are you thinking of?
16:46 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: and then when this code is about to be merged, and they do the whole "you should've complained earlier, if you want something else doing you have one week to make an alternative" thing again?
16:46 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@217.129.146.75] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:46 <@ciaranm> tannewt: see mailing list
16:47 <@tannewt> ciaranm, i'm looking but not following it very well
16:47 <@ciaranm> as it stands, simple questions like "roughly what will the ebuild for $foo look like once it's been changed?" and "how will you solve the problem of packages which use $bar looking in the wrong location for stuff?" are not answered yet
16:48 -!- kerframil_ is now known as kerframil
16:48 -!- leonardop [n=leonardo@gentoo/developer/leonardop] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:48 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o leonardop] by ChanServ
16:49 <@Ramereth> ciaranm: you're entirely making an assumption based on nothing because you're scared they won't listen to your opinion when that time comes
16:49 <@Ramereth> that's just a silly assumption.. Gentoo, we're all about trust around here
16:49 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: no, i'm basing it upon past experience
16:49 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: that, plus i'm trying to save huge amounts of wasted time
16:49 <@Ramereth> past experience doesnt' mean it'll happen again. some folks learn from past errors
16:49 <@spb> and some don't
16:49 <@ciaranm> and some don't, and are repeating them again and again
16:49 <@spb> </useless-comment>
16:50 <@Ramereth> so contribute instead of bickering like an old man
16:50 <@ciaranm> portage's #1 problem? it's a hideous hack. so what do they do? add more hacks!
16:50 <@ciaranm> Ramereth: i am contributing. to the *design* stage, which is where this thing should be right now
16:50 <@ferringb> *cough* rewrite you clown *cough*
16:50 <@ferringb> ciaranm: beyond that, you've got your own claimed rewrite.  supplant us, chip in, or shut up.
16:50 <@spb> rewrite ciaranm ?
16:50 <@spb> scary thought
16:50 <@ferringb> too much talk for too little work from you ciaran.
16:51 <@Ramereth> anyways, too much ciaranm wasted time for me today.. i'm out
16:51 <+ReJ> Could someone point out, right now, a *specific* problem. Say, an ebuild that has all the markings of an ugly hack that exemplifies the "problem"? Otherwise, what *is* the problem?
16:51 <@tannewt> ferringb, how will what you are trying effect ebuilds?
16:51 -!- JoseJX [n=jjezak@c-67-171-66-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:51 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o JoseJX] by ChanServ
16:51 <@tannewt> ciaranm, okay that makes sense
16:51 <@ciaranm> ferringb: the talk avoids huge amounts of wasted time later cleaning up
16:52 <+ReJ> Or maybe a profile.
16:52 <@ferringb> tannewt: introduction of a prefix var, eautoreconf modifications for starters.
16:52 <@ferringb> tannewt: iron those out, and start working on it further.
16:52 <@ferringb> tannewt: you're not going to know just by trying it on a handful of ebuilds.
16:52 <@ciaranm> ReJ: simple example. i want an example of what the ebuilds for glibc, gcc, coreutils etc will look like. doesn't have to be exact, just a rough approximation
16:52 <@AllanonJL> dsd_: its fine for you to commit that ( #108175 ), with a revbump
16:53 <@ferringb> ciaranm: perhaps in your view, but from where I sit you're not accomplishing anything but pissing people off
16:53 <@AllanonJL> Flameeyes: you get my email a couple days ago?
16:53 <@tannewt> ferringb, true true but does everything need to be laid out before applying the concept to various ebuilds?
16:53 <@ferringb> tannewt: nope.
16:53 <@ciaranm> ferringb: well no, because you'd rather sit around and get pissed off than do some proper design
16:54 <@tannewt> ferringb, then why can't some examples be shown?
16:54 <@Flameeyes> AllanonJL, yep, but i want to be sure that they build on linux, so i was going to create a snapshot to compile gnome in... had a couple of problems with kde and visibility tho, so i had to stop in the middle
16:54 <@ferringb> christ almighty.
16:54 -!- gerrynjr [n=gerrynjr@gentoo/developer/gerrynjr] has joined #gentoo-dev
16:54 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o gerrynjr] by ChanServ
16:54 <@AllanonJL> Flameeyes: ah ok, just wondering :)
16:54 <@ferringb> tannewt: you likely don't know this, but people already have been using haubi's modifications for quite some time on their own.
16:54 <@Flameeyes> AllanonJL, i'll complete the chroot and the rest tomorrow (i hope)
16:55 <@ferringb> tannewt: you want examples?  I'll poke one of them to tarball up their overlay.
16:55 <@AllanonJL> Flameeyes: sure thing, no rush
16:55 <@dsd_> AngusYoung: thanks, will do that
16:55 <@Flameeyes> AllanonJL, i'm also looking for help with the 2.12 patches, but it seems like nobody with fbsd wants to deal with that :P
16:55 <@ferringb> ciaranm: re: preferring to fight, I'll note that you're about the only one I fight with.
16:55 <+ReJ> The basic idea seems to be that you somehow gather up all kinds of meta-knowledge about how a specific platform will or should work and then somehow remove a lot of that work from the ebuilds and into a central part that pertains to that specific platform, right?
16:55 <@tannewt> ferringb, cool, any trouble with looking at those ebuilds ciaranm?
16:55 <@ferringb> course... everyone fights with you, although it could just be me.
16:56 <@tannewt> ferringb, drop it
16:56 <@ferringb> tannewt: not gonna happen.
16:56 <@AllanonJL> Flameeyes: thought you had some upcoming recruits? :P
16:56 <@ciaranm> tannewt: i've seen some of those already. i've also pointed out all the stuff they *don't* fix, which is currently being ignored
16:56 <@ferringb> he wants to look at the overlay, he can.  I'm not going to sit back and be insulted and play nice however.
16:56 <@ferringb> ciaranm: which ones have you seen?
16:57 <@Flameeyes> AllanonJL, yep but nobody with gnome yet :P xfce, kde, commonbox.... but gnome have a bad reputation on fbsd (cause of ports maintainers mainly, i'd think)
16:57 <@ferringb> ciaranm: I assume that's where you pulled the /bin/sh example from if that's the case.
16:57 <+ReJ> ciaranm: Could you list those problems, or point to that list of problems?
16:57 <@tannewt> cairanm, is there a list of problems with the citations of the source?
16:57 <@ciaranm> ferringb: the ones i looked at were the ones for packages i maintain. and the /bin/sh example is so frickin' obvious it doesn't even need an example to see it
16:58 <@ciaranm> there's been a list sent to the mailing list several times
16:58 <@ferringb> that's not a list.
16:58 <@ferringb> ciaranm: produce a list, then we'll talk, ok?
16:58 <@tannewt> ciaranm, I'm dense link me to the ebuild
16:59 -!- upt1me [n=upt1me@68-112-109-139.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:59 <@tannewt> ciaranm, fo rthe ebuilds?  could you give me a specific example?
16:59 <@tannewt> ciaranm, why?
16:59 -!- FuzzyRay [n=pvarner@pool-71-96-238-191.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:00 <@tannewt> ciaranm, which ebuild should I ask for?
17:00 <@kito> not that those would be very relevant anyway
17:00 -!- GurliOnTheRoad [n=GurliGeb@gurlinet.dk] has joined #gentoo-dev
17:00 -!- mode/#gentoo-dev [+o GurliOnTheRoad] by ChanServ
17:00 <@tannewt> whats his/her email?
17:01 <@ciaranm> uh, see bug 87877
17:01 <+GenBot> ciaranm: Bug 87877; "let portage work in different PREFIX, with packages to install in new PREFIX too"; [Portage Development :: Core]; {RESOLVED:LATER}; Michael Haubenwallner->Portage team; http://bugs.gentoo.org/87877
17:02 <@tannewt> alright, I'll get those ebuilds
17:02 <@tannewt> I gotta run, be back on in ~2 hours
17:03 <@tannewt> thanks guys
17:03 -!- tannewt [n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt] has quit ["Leaving"]