irc log of #gentoo-comrel

2015-02-19.log (text/x-log), 46.25 KB, created by William L. Thomson Jr. on 2015-02-22 17:16:19 UTC

--- Log opened Thu Feb 19 00:00:11 2015
01:26 < creffett|irssi> mgorny: ?
04:38 <@dilfridge> mgorny: unreal would do it as well
09:48 < wltjr> jlec: attitude won't change, its the culture of recruiting that needs to be changed, also you fail to realize its actions by recruiting and others that bring out the attitude, so if that changes well then :)
09:49 < wltjr> jlec: but reality is after 7+ years, after this time I am likely to move on from gentoo entirely, been wanting to check out freebsd, might just switch over entirely or other distro I really don't need gentoo, much less to contribute... recruiters need to realize not many if any are willing to do the work I am, NO one has shown up in 7+ years, how many more years does recruiting want to wait for someon
09:49 < wltjr> e to show up to maintain things much less improve and further, I am sure many would love to have people contributing on java stuff...
09:50 < wltjr> freebsd has an awesome foundation, I looked at their foundation allot when I was gentoo trustee, and freebsd is a true 501c, they passed their 5yr probation
09:51 < wltjr> so recruiters let me know if you want to process me, if not no worries won't be making any more noise have other things to do, and places to contribute where my contributions are WANTED and APPRECIATED unlike here...
09:52 < xiaomiao> wltjr: I've offered my help to infra and recruiters often enough, apparently they don't need help (while complaining that they need help)
09:52  * xiaomiao doesn't claim to understand humans
09:53 < wltjr> xiaomiao: its clear they want to keep it some exclusive club, despite the cruft in tree, outdated, broken packages, etc
09:53 < wltjr> rather than a process where ANYONE can learn contribute and join regardless of attitude, skills, etc...
09:53 < xiaomiao> be careful, you might hurt someone's feelings
09:53 < wltjr> xiaomiao: won't be the first or last time :) I will bust out my violin
09:54 < xiaomiao> :D
09:54 < wltjr> gentoo isn't cisco not like anyone got hired for recommending gentoo... I have yet to see many companies take it seriously
09:55 < wltjr> xiaomiao: but looking at some of the past key players knowing they are falling off, gentoo could be facing a very rough future if they do not fix the dev:packages ratio
09:56 < wltjr> 1647 packages orphaned, maintainer-needed, but does comrel give a crap about that? ;)
09:56 < wltjr> robbat2 500+ vapier 500+, lose either one of those and well that number goes up allot
09:56 < wltjr> even patrick I worked with for a while I have not been able to find is 350+
09:57 < wltjr> jlec: your right up there as well #3 or #4 if including orphaned with 500+ as well
09:58 < wltjr> http://euscan.gentooexperimental.org/maintainers/
09:58 < wltjr> to bad that doesn't list a total could get a idea of the ratio of unmainted to total packages, as well as the ratio of maintainers to packages
09:59 < wltjr> this is really serious stuff I hope comrel treats it as such... I highly doubt robbat2 and vapier will be around 5+ years from now, its possible, but I have seen most any I used to work with and attended Linux World Expo back in they day are all gone or MIA
10:02 < wltjr> by the way, work with me no attitude, get in my way of getting work done, making progress, furthering things, being efficient, you get attitude :) easy problem to solve, work make things happen be part of the solution rather than the problem and never an attitude from me... or anyone else :)
10:02 < wltjr> after all comrel is hardly development or technical so it should NOT hold those things back for any non-technical reason...
10:03 < wltjr> if comrel is holding gentoo back, then like devrel it should GO AWAY, or get out of the way
10:03 < wltjr> do something lead follow or get out of the way....
10:53 < wltjr> http://euscan.gentooexperimental.org/herds/
10:53 < wltjr> sort taht by outdated packages.... perl is in the lead with 921, then proxy maintainers 885, then gstreamer, gnome, java, etc.... gentoo is hurting
10:55 < wltjr> over half proxy maintained stuff is out of date, 2/3s of gnome is out of date, 1/4 of java, gstreamer doesn't make sense 266 total but 644 outdated
10:58 < kensington> a lot of what euscan counts as missed versions of gstreamer is invalid
10:59 < wltjr> kensington: yeah clearly that one cannot be trusted :)
10:59 < wltjr> even if its not accurate on the rest it doesn't show good stuff, debian stable might be in better shape new stuff, that is really sad
10:59 < kensington> see http://euscan.gentooexperimental.org/package/media-plugins/gst-plugins-vorbis/ I guess that plugin is removed/merged into something different in :1.0
11:00 < wltjr> kensington: sure not really concerned with any specific herd, just showing in general there is tremendous work to be done
11:00 < wltjr> just to get things current, not to mention further things, improve etc
11:00 < kensington> sure, I know that perl and ruby have new life lately
11:01 < wltjr> I have some perl ebuilds to contribute and could help out there as I depend on assp, and that is also outdated I have newer ebuilds for that, and pretty sure most version of ASSP in tree are broken because you can't download the source
11:02 < kensington> fortunately perl team had some people join and is much more active these days
11:02 < wltjr> need to find out if perl has issues with IPv6, of it its ASSP, can't use IPv6 wildcards in ASSP and ASSP has problems with IPv6 DNS resolution, like using IPv6 IP for DNS server for resolution, only likes to use IPv4, not sure if that is ASSP or the perl module IO::Socket::INET6
11:03 < wltjr> I guess I am glad I switched from gnome to kde on gentoo... given gnome has fallen by the way side 2/3rds I hope that number is inaccurate like gstreamer
11:04 < wltjr> I know the java number is about accurate, and some of those packages need to be removed, servletapi, glassfish-servlet-api, others
11:04 < kensington> gnome has beeen quiet lately, but there seems to be some signs of more activity lately which is good
11:04 < kensington> yeah, java needs a lot of love :(
11:04 < wltjr> kensington: I have tried but my efforst have been kept out for years...
11:05 < wltjr> kensington: I am almost done porting java-config to C and it screams....
11:06 < wltjr> also fixing bugs in the python version presently available on gentoo and in tree, which no one is working on, fixing any issues, or improving
11:06 < wltjr> http://pastebin.com/WqcisK21
11:06 < wltjr> also added new features like sorting package in the package list, etc
11:07 < wltjr> might even evolve it so other distros can use java-config as well, since I believe none have anything like it to manage java env variables, JAVA_HOME, CLASSPATH etc, which on gentoo is set per package
11:07 < kensington> I don't know if java is so much keeping people out as is generally inactive
11:07 < wltjr> in fact gentoo gcc needs to learn from gentoo java, and get rid of question 21 on end-quiz
11:07 < wltjr> kensington: I know the problems its recruiting
11:07 < wltjr> kensington: old java team lead was team lead of recruiting
11:08 < wltjr> kensington: but I have seen several come and go that contributed allot and never became devs, they might have stuck around if they were encouraged to be devs etc
11:08 < wltjr> others like gnu_andrew who is literally responsible for FOSS java on gentoo, which I am sure no one cares about since no one on Gentoo has problem with closed source binaries like Oracle/Formerly Sun Java JRE/JDK
11:09 < wltjr> well gnu_andrew works in an overlay rather than being a dev, which he should have been years ago...
11:09 < kensington> sure, there's always room for improvement
11:09 < wltjr> no one aside from me talks to gnu_andrew about becoming a dev, and if I got processed yesterday instead of the bs, that would have encouraged gnu_andrew to spend the time on the quizzes etc
11:10 < wltjr> instead he saw me get no where, drama, since he is working at RedHat, even being paid to work on Java on Gentoo, he will NOT waste time to deal with gentoo recruitment bs, no one working on Linux as part of their day job could justify such
11:10 < kensington> i guess it's difficult to find a mentor for someone working primarily in an area untouched by others
11:10 < wltjr> oh hey boss, I can't join gentoo, they don't like my attitude... I am sure that will fly in the corporate world....
11:11 < wltjr> kensington: not at all, its difficult to get recruiters to recruit they are just HR process applications and become a road block rather than a gateway
11:11 < kensington> wrt to attitude, of course it's important
11:11 < wltjr> kensington: none of these things are difficult I built the java team before and plan to again if recruiting will cooperate and help out
11:11 < wltjr> kensington: it really is not, if it was many would fail in life, go look at the attitudes of those at the top companies
11:12 < wltjr> kensington: most all lost their cool are harsh, known to be jerks etc, its business, survival of the fittest, not the nicest...
11:12 < wltjr> its kill or be killed, not befriend... dog eat dog world, not dog loves all dogs...
11:13 < kensington> gentoo is not big business and we already have more than enough assholes to go aroudn
11:13 < wltjr> gentoo has become pussified for real, does no one have thick skin? can't see through some bs for technical value? tantrums anti-social behavior immaturity etc is what tech is known for, go into the security world and it gets WORSE
11:13 < wltjr> kensington: my point is gentoo will not get contributions from big businesses and others its not worth their time to contribute that is not good
11:13 < wltjr> that was NOT how it used to be
11:13 < wltjr> BIG companies used to have interest in Gentoo and don't now
11:14 < wltjr> I recall a gentoo linux newsletter about a former gentoo developer, at the time current, who worked for a supercomputer company, I can't recall but some 256+ processors
11:14 < wltjr> back in the day etrade use to brag about running gentoo
11:14 < wltjr> when was the last time gentoo was in the news
11:15 < kensington> I somehow doubt corporate interest in gentoo has much to do with comrel activities
11:15 < wltjr> gentoo was totally overlooked with regard to openrc and systemd seems to be anti unix philosophy and very controversial
11:15 < wltjr> gentoo has some revolutionary stuff that NO other distros are adopting
11:15 < wltjr> kensington: it does, I was seeking to change this stuff when I was part of the foundation, I had great plans
11:16 < kensington> the foundation has nothing to do with comrel
11:16 < wltjr> kensington: I wanted to see gentoo work with vendors and get hardware donations and be certified etc like you see with RHEL and SUSE EL, etc
11:17 < wltjr> kensington: its all related, comrel limits dev pool, that effects the foundation, its difficult for non-devs to become foundation members
11:17 < kensington> what stops you from doing that?
11:17 < wltjr> kensington: comrel, formerly devrel drove me away, so that was REALLY bad
11:19 < kensington> it's clearly written how non-devs can become foundation members
11:19 < wltjr> kensington: comrel formerly devrel has been the road block for 7+ years for me to return going on some 4 or 5 attempts now, 3 different times doing quizzes since my 1st in 2006
11:19 < wltjr> kensington: its not easy to lead from outside its very difficult to lead from within
11:20 < wltjr> kensington: anyway your comments are like others, rather keep people out than in, so why should I bother or others
11:20 < wltjr> kensington: plus nothing i can do on the foudnation will help given the state of things in gentoo, outdate packages etc
11:20 < wltjr> kensington: can't build relationships with companies around outdated tech
11:21 < kensington> wltjr: unfortunately I don't think you'll find much support for accepting new developers regardless of their behaviour
11:21 < wltjr> kensington: yes that is my point, my attitude is really not the issue, and its not just with me its all around
11:21 < wltjr> kensington: its been a problem for a long time, and it does not seem to be who is part of comrel/devrel or the entity name, its the same disease
11:22 < wltjr> its creating the toxic atmosphere, doesn't really effect me other than it would be sad to see gentoo continue to declien as it has been for a long time now
11:22 < kensington> some might say the toxic atmosphere comes from those that act without regard to others
11:23 < wltjr> I am really at the point of moving on from gentoo, I am sure many other distros would welcome contributions, and had offers of jobs at RH before
11:23 < wltjr> kensington: that would be comrel/devrel, they are not taking users into consideration at all with their actions
11:23 < wltjr> users do not benefit from things not being updated
11:23 < wltjr> users do not benefit from less developers
11:23 < kensington> you are over simplifying
11:24 < wltjr> kensington: not really, its not a complex matter, people are making it such
11:24 < wltjr> kensington: gentoo does not have anything different than any FOSS project for real
11:24 < wltjr> but all others make it happen, but as I pointed out many times and on my developer bug, NO other anything had an entity like devrel
11:24 < kensington> you can't reduce a distribution to what bits it writes to its mirrors
11:25 < wltjr> comrel is a attempt to be more like others in regard to community/developer etc relations
11:25 < kensington> ever looked at the debian recruitment process?
11:25 < wltjr> kensington: long ago, its been a while at one LWE everyone from the gentoo booth attended a LUG meeting in SF which was a debian developer doing a presentation it was a good learning experience for debian
11:26 < wltjr> kensington: former leader of my local lug was maybe still is head of debian woman
11:26 < kensington> i think you'll find debian has its fair share of bureaucracy too
11:26 < wltjr> lots of people in my area are debian fans and maybe a developer or two, and this is not really a tech centric area, more windows than linux, though thats changing due to oracle pushing linux over solaris
11:27 < wltjr> kensington: yes but they are organized, legal 501c, have annual conferences etc
11:27 < wltjr> kensington: gentoo would only be so lucky, I had plans for such through the foundation, I do not see the council ever organizing a gentoo event
11:27 < wltjr> kensington: I am not anti-bureaucracy, in fact that is part of gentoo's problem, lack of organization
11:28 < kensington> organising gentoo events is not one of the council's purposes
11:28 < wltjr> kensington: lack of heirarchy, I used to call it a three headed snake, but 1 head seems to have been cut off, infra
11:28 < wltjr> kensington: yes I know, and the foudnation has never been what it was always intended to be
11:29 < wltjr> its inept, it was never intended to be such, the foundation was meant to lead gentoo, with the council being in charge technically, I refer to the councile as CFO
11:29 < kensington> lack of organisation is also one of gentoo's greatest strengths - we are a metadistribution after all :-)
11:29 < wltjr> kensington: then why should social chaos be bad? if the development process is chaos, lack of organization, gentoos greatest strength... :)
11:30 < wltjr> kensington: you reap what you sow.... no organization, your going to get crazy attitudes at times, they are dealing with chaos
11:30 < kensington> without strong organisation we rely on each other's good behaviour to keep things running
11:31 < wltjr> kensington: for example my attitude comes from no clear path in, and roadblocks, even jlec hinted on like he was willing to help out, then as it got time to make things happen, excuse after excuse, I would rather just say no upfront and save all time and bs
11:31 < wltjr> kensington: people do not behave good in general
11:31 < wltjr> that is against mankind
11:31 < wltjr> again gentoo can pee in the wind, try to make everyone play nice, but that is not a realistic goal and does nothing to accomplish technical things
11:32 < wltjr> the best outcome is oil and water mix, and they do not get along rightly so, but when they can come together magic happens
11:32 < kensington> to be completely honest, based on this conversation, I don't think that you and gentoo really are a good fit together
11:32 < wltjr> I am not saying I am him, but I am saying that toxic people are not always such, again Bill Gates, Steve Balmer, Steve Jobbs, Mark Zuckerburg, Eistein, Tesla, go on and one they all had bad attitudes
11:33 < wltjr> kensington: yes I know, thus i am saying I will likely leave for good this time
11:33 < wltjr> kensington: I doubt anyone involved with java will like that, despite me not being aroud much over the years
11:34 < wltjr> kensington: gentoo needs me more than I need gentoo, its only people involved with gentoo, that have not worked with me, that likely would not once I was a developer, that seem to think I need gentoo for some reason, when its the other way around for real
11:34 < kensington> if you decide to leave, i hope you find something that suits you - of course there's other projects that operate in ways that you prefer
11:34 < wltjr> after all if it wasn't for me, gentoo would not be legal, it would not have a bank account, no by laws, etc, others could have done all that, but it never happened, the by laws were a draft for years
11:35 < wltjr> kensington: there are many, I have been around this for years, many have wanted to me to contribute I keep saying hat
11:35 < wltjr> I had job offers from RH, and one of the guys I know who was trying to get me over to RH has been promoted several times, he is pretty high up
11:35 < wltjr> met fedora, bsd, others at LWE and other events many times
11:36 < kensington> of course there's always room for improvement - but gentoo is what it is
11:36 < wltjr> worked with upstreams etc, mentioned in some books, like the tomcat guide from oreilly for tomcat on gentoo etc
11:36 < kensington> historically people that try to fundamentally change things to their way of thinking are not well received
11:36 < wltjr> kensington: people are afraid of the changes that might come with me being involved, so they use excuses to keep me out
11:36 < wltjr> kensington: for real last time it was because I disliked devrel, and now you have comrel
11:37 < wltjr> kensington: so many thigns I brought up and got bashed for, others ended up doing or bringing up again later its really funny
11:37 < wltjr> kensington: it wasnt my way of thinking
11:37 < wltjr> I was elected as a trustee
11:37 < wltjr> more liked my thoughts than disliked, it was just the few that drowed out the others and when devrel acted on 1 developers complaints it made it that much worse
11:38 < wltjr> kensington: I even said in my manifesto do not vote for me and people did
11:38 < wltjr> kensington: I talked to Daniel, the creator, I know his original vision, it sad its been lost
11:38 < kensington> certainly comrel/devrel is not perfect, but i don't think it's fair to accuse them of applying different rules to different people
11:38 < wltjr> kensington: it is literally the case
11:39 < wltjr> kensington:  the thigns that have been happening to me have not happened to ANYONE else from the actions devrel took back in the day, to the mistakes they made, them not following their own policies etc
11:39 < wltjr> kensington: its because a few individuals have the control
11:39 < wltjr> kensington: coucil does not review devrel/comrel actions, they go unchecked
11:39 < wltjr> in theory you can appeal to the council, but that is bringing social matters to a technical body, I am not sure that has ever happened
11:40 < kensington> that's just plain false
11:40 < wltjr> kensington: show me otherwise, any links to appeals?
11:40 < wltjr> kensington: but it is the flat out truth, its the recruiters preventing me from returning, how many of those are there/
11:41 < kensington> it's up to each individual to appeal, I can't say why any particular person chooses to or not to appeal
11:41 < wltjr> kensington: are they asking the developer community? or the council or just amongst themselves?
11:41 < wltjr> kensington: have you seen an appeal?
11:41 < wltjr> kensington: do you have knowledge of an appeal every taking place
11:41 < wltjr> s/every/ever
11:42 < kensington> what is your point? the council can review comrel actions if it receives an appeal
11:42 < wltjr> kensington: again when jlec came to me yesterday and brought up social issues, who did he talk to? the community? a few people or many?
11:42 < wltjr> kensington: that is a theory to my knowledge it has NEVER happened
11:42 < wltjr> kensington: because the actions of comrel/devrel are so harmful they turn people off, why bother with gentoo, with appeal, just move on as they do
11:43 < wltjr> kensington: look what exists because of gentoo, exherbo, funtoo, etc, that is gentoo's fault, fractured their own community
11:43 < wltjr> kensington: but again you can say what ever, gentoo has been perverted
11:44 < wltjr> kensington: daniel would never have handed things over to the foundation if he knew the future, gentoo now is NOT what it was intended to be, its sad those invovled can't realize such
11:44 < kensington> he made his choice, perhaps things didn't end up how he envisioned (who knows?) but this is where we are
11:45 < wltjr> now I am not a big fan of his, he screwed me when he last returned, I was supportive of him, and he just moved on and went forward with funtoo, but I can't blame him for the name, gentoo is anything but, and its the atmosphere that makes it such
11:45 < wltjr> kensington: but it can change, gentoo can either get back to its roots, live up to its potential and be what it was intended to be, or continue to fall apart
11:45 < wltjr> what I have seen over the past 7 years from the outside is falling apart, is that what I want? hell no
11:45 < wltjr> FYI I never wanted to be a developer then or now, why did I become one?
11:46 < kensington> I think you will find many who would say this sort of stuff ^ is what takes the fun out of gentoo
11:46 < wltjr> because stuff was not being updated... plain and simple, so I started contributing, after I left I hoped others would come, at times some did for a few things, but only short periods and over time most things have been neglected, I am not sure if anyone will come, and as more time passes the stuff gets older, it will interest less and less
11:47 < kensington> bickering puts existing developers off, much less new ones
11:47 < wltjr> kensington: would any of this exist if jlec processed me yesterday? there would have been less noise yesterday and today
11:47 < wltjr> kensington: exactly my point comrel causes drama, the bad attitude, takes the fun out, etc
11:47 < wltjr> we are not learning, not improving, etc
11:47 < wltjr> kensington: you don't need to tell me this, understand when I joined the java team there was barely 2 active devs
11:47 < kensington> that's pretty rude to try and blame jlec for your own behaviour
11:48 < wltjr> kensington: I got many other devs on board, we had active meetings I helped to start and organize etc
11:48 < wltjr> kensington: he brought up the social stuff, I kept it all business
11:48 < wltjr> kensington: I simply said lets setup a time for review
11:48 < kensington> whether you like it or not, social stuff is business for gentoo
11:48 < wltjr> kensington: it really is not, many maintain stuff and do not socialize with others
11:48 < Philantrop> wltjr: I have appealed against being kicked out. cf. https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=216219#c17 and https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168573#c21 and https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237381
11:49 < wltjr> that was my plan for a long time, just silently commit and udpate stuff
11:49 < wltjr> Philantrop: hahaha did anything come of that? :)
11:49 < Philantrop> wltjr: Well, I was told I'm an asshole and that was that. :-)
11:49 < wltjr> Philantrop: might be talking to you about joining exherbo but given how much java work needs to be done there, might go else where, really thinking freebsd
11:50 < wltjr> Philantrop: you are, but I am one as well :) but we have nothing to contribute technically, either way because we are assholes we can't be part of gentoo, no gentoo dev now or ever has been an asshole :P
11:50 < wltjr> kensington: have I made any noise on mailing list? brought this bs to the larger community? I could easily
11:50 < Philantrop> wltjr: Pretty much, yes. :-)
11:51 < wltjr> kensington: I am trying to make as little noise as possible, do what is necessary to get back on and get to work ASAP
11:51 < kensington> you're making an awful lot of noise here
11:51 < wltjr> kensington: yes becase this is the only place that controls the gates, this is home of the gatekeepers
11:51 < wltjr> kensington: I can post to -project if you like, I was requested to by others on a security bug
11:51 < wltjr> kensington: I can make serious noise if you like, and with my comments I guarantee other developers will care about how I have been treated
11:52 < wltjr> bottom line, GENTOO CREATES PEOPLES ATTITUDES, that is why gentoo is plagued by social problems that do not hold back the rest of the FOSS world but gentoo is stuck dealing with the same year after year
11:52 < kensington> I have to wonder how serious you really after - after being about concerns about your behaviour, you prove those concerns true
11:52 < wltjr> I mean how many have bad attitudes, me, Philantrop, all of exherbo, etc wow, are all all that similar, doubtful, when differnet people run into the same problem, maybe its not the people
11:53 < wltjr> but Gentoo will never self reflect, are we doing anything wrong to hurt ourselves, hell no, gentoo has a ego like we are gods, everything we do is perfect, and we are models of how others should act socialy, and a project that is leading the FOSS world technically....
11:54 < wltjr> kensington: you just proved my point, if you create a toxic atmosphere, you will get toxic attitudes from me and others :)
11:54 < wltjr> shall I repeat? or loop?
11:54 < kensington> gentoo and exherbo both attract different types of people, and there's nothing wrong with that
11:54 < wltjr> kensington: NO, most of exherbo came from Gentoo
11:54 < wltjr> kensington: I recongize most all names and used to see them committing to gentoo and I worked with several
11:55 < wltjr> kloeri was a MUCH better recruiter and teacher than anyone i have come across invovled in gentoo recruiting since
11:55 < wltjr> I have been aroudn gentoo since 2003, and was a developer 2006-2008, plus LWE, etc, been around for some time
11:56 < wltjr> in fact those who first told me about gentoo I can't even get them to look at it
11:56 < wltjr> these days I tell people don't run gentoo, I am question why I still am
11:57 < wltjr> kensington: so back to comrel, right now its up to them to help me become a dev and make allot of contributions to gentoo, or I can go away and they can wait for another to come if one does, its comrel/recruiters choice, no other body, thus I am here
11:57 < kensington> why do you, if you hate it so much?
11:57 < wltjr> kensington: I don't hate gentoo, I hate what a few people have been doing to hurt it for years now
11:57 < wltjr> kensington: I can either help change gentoo for the better, or walk away
11:58 < wltjr> its in my best interest to walk for sure, I am self employed my busienss suffered in 2006-2008 with my contributions to gentoo, given the decline in the economy after I might have gone under if I stayd, I have done better since not being invovled, its really not a good business decision for me
11:59 < wltjr> but from a technical perspective as a developer, I really like aspects of gentoo and have a hard time wanting to run binaries someone else made etc
11:59 < wltjr> but I do have an option freebsd, or others
11:59 < kensington> it seems you have two options really
12:00 < wltjr> kensington: I have many, but in general for gentoo yes, continue on, or move on
12:00 < wltjr> kensington: that is up to comrel not me
12:00 < kensington> you can either stop complaining here and prove yourself by sharing your many valuable contributions, or petition the council that comrel is being mean to you
12:00 < wltjr> kensington: have you not seen my post on java-config port to C?
12:00 < wltjr> I just contributed oracle-javamail, and tomcat 8 would have gone into tree yesterday had I not lost time
12:01 < wltjr> I bumped a few packages a while back in bugzilla that went no where, that was not very encouraging
12:01 < wltjr> kensington: ask any active java dev if they would benefit from my return
12:01 < wltjr> I have massive things to contribute, not just java, perl ebuilds, assp, ipv6 patched qmail ebuild
12:02 < wltjr> not to mention packages to update, remove, tons of house cleaning
12:02 < wltjr> kensington: once i ported java stuff from python to C i planned to move on to other things, not sure if I would do eselect or equery next
12:02 < wltjr> also planned to rebuild java team, get meetings going, get more devs on board etc
12:03 < wltjr> but I have no personal or business benefit from that stuff, gentoo has allot to gain, me very little if anything
12:03 < wltjr> its not a matter of me proving myself, its a matter of others helping out and getting out of the way of progress
12:04 < kensington> well, I wish you all the best in your future endeavours
12:04 < wltjr> had jlec set a time with me yesterday no drama then or today, I would be committing vs bitching :)
12:04 < wltjr> kensington: are you part of comrel? should I take that as comrels offical stance?
12:04 < kensington> as i said before, it's not nice to blame other people for your own behaviour
12:05 < wltjr> I do not care about being nice, I care about getting shit done.... they two do not go hand in hand
12:05 < wltjr> kensington: are others being nice to me? ask yourself that
12:05 < wltjr> the golden rule....
12:05 < kensington> i'm not part of comrel, that's just my personal opinion
12:06 < wltjr> I showed jlec and others respect, I did what was required, did I get respect in return? or did I get attitude and roadblocks?
12:06 < wltjr> kensington: well I would not recommend discouraging people from anything, maybe you like doing such
12:06 < wltjr> its best to be supportive and positive
12:06 < kensington> you could try taking your own advice
12:06 < wltjr> if I saw someone in my situation I would be supportive and ecouraging, not making comments like maybe you and gentoo are not right for each other etc
12:07 < wltjr> kensington: I am, I give positive reinforcment, have you ever worked with me? do you have any idea how i actually conduct myself?
12:07 < wltjr> no one in here does they just assume and pass judgement without knowing
12:07 < kensington> it's not necessarily a bad thing, there are many projects I would not be a good fit for
12:07 < wltjr> kensington: I would never say the things you said to me to anyone
12:07 < wltjr> I would never tell someone they are not right for something
12:08 < wltjr> kensington: maybe those involved with comrel are not a good fit?
12:08 < wltjr> kensington: maybe those leading gentoo are not a good fit
12:08 < wltjr> oh wait gentoo can do no wrong
12:08 < wltjr> everyone on comrel works in hr or recruiting for their profession I forgot
12:09 < kensington> that's just reality, there's no way to avoid the fact that not everything goes together
12:09 < wltjr> kensington: you became a dev in 2012, I would not expect you to understand, how long have you been around gentoo?
12:10 < wltjr> this is part of the problem, the new culture has no respect for those that came before, no respect
12:10 < wltjr> last night at my lug meeting I met a few that I had not in 10+ years, but they were part of the LUG before me, I showed them respect
12:10 < kensington> not that it means anything, but i remember looking forward to the 1.4 release
12:10 < wltjr> I have no idea what they contributed, they might have been jerks, etc who cares they came before me
12:11 < wltjr> kensington: is your interest in gentoo business or personal?
12:11 < kensington> respect is earned, not doled out based on some arbitrary seniority
12:12 < wltjr> that also tends to be a differing factor, I did not work with many who had personal interest in gentoo, most had business interests
12:12 < wltjr> kensington: dude I earned it, its not my fault people do not know the history and have no respect
12:12 < wltjr> kensington: its not my fault you are not aware of the things I did, if you google its easy to see
12:13 < wltjr> my name is all over, docs, by laws, some of the last press gentoo got, etc
12:13 < wltjr> grep tree for my name in changelogs etc
12:13 < kensington> I won't comment on your past, but your current behaviour is not conducive to earning respect
12:13 < wltjr> simple stuff
12:13 < wltjr> kensington: again how was my behavior before jlec brought that stuff up?
12:14 < wltjr> if you punch someone in the face and they hit you back, you cannot accuse them of being violent
12:14 < wltjr> no one is helping me to return, but instead doing the opposite making it more and more difficult
12:14 < wltjr> but that has NO effect on anyones attitude right? people are just supposed to put up with that
12:14 < kensington> clearly there were some concerns about your past behaviour
12:14 < wltjr> kensington: I am being treated now just as any other recruit?
12:14 < wltjr> kensington: YEARS AGO
12:15 < wltjr> and they create a situation to bring that back, but I am not acting out of line, no insults, not foul language, etc
12:15 < kensington> which were obviously warranted based on your current behaviour
12:15 < wltjr> no posts to mailing list, not making this any bigger
12:15 < wltjr> kensington: what behavior?
12:15 < wltjr> kensington: because I am not rolling over and taking it?
12:16 < wltjr> kensington: so its normal for recruiting a developer to bring up the past?
12:16 < wltjr> that is part of the recruitment process for everyone?
12:16 < wltjr> what if someone had bad behviour on another project?
12:16 < wltjr> I am not being treated as others
12:16 < kensington> i am fairly certain the behaviour of every recruit is assessed
12:17 < wltjr> kensington: its not, where is that mentioned in the docs?
12:17 < wltjr> kensington: I have never seen that before, and I had been through this process before, and again I helped caster, ali_bush, fordforg all become devs
12:18 < kensington> why would you have? each recruiter assesses new recruits according to their own judgement
12:18 < wltjr> my attitude is that I am still trying to help improve things despite all the barriers I am being presented with, that shows a fair level of patience, I have not taken this to the larger community, let me dig up the bug where others wanted me to, none of those people are here, and others do and will care if I post to a list
12:19 < wltjr> kensington: exactly my point
12:19 < wltjr> kensington: so one person can make a choice, that is not how community things should be done
12:19 < wltjr> kensington: gentoo does not belong to 1 person
12:19 < wltjr> its should never be up to 1 person
12:19 < wltjr> why I keep saying a few hold gentoo back
12:20 < kensington> I can't speak for the them, but I would expect there is some sort of team consensus behind such things
12:21 < wltjr> anyway I have work to do, recruiters if you want to process me let me know, if you do not want me to be part of gentoo, just say that, I want an official comment from comrel collectively, I do not want to continue making noise, I am not posting to list, etc I will eitehr come on board and get to work silently or go away just the same, its up to comrel please let me know ASAP thank you for your conside
12:21 < wltjr> ration and cooperation
12:21 < wltjr> kensington: nope rarely the case, and I havent' the time or interest to appeal to council etc
12:22 < kensington> you can't speak for their processes either
12:23 < wltjr> kensington: I am aware, again I suggested ways to improve to past leadership, which was heard since devrel went away...
12:24 < wltjr> kensington: I am done, I made my last comment in here to comrel, they can process me or say no and I will go away very simple nothing more needs to be said
12:25 < wltjr> comrel/recruiters contact me if you want to proceed, I will have fordfrog/my mentor reopen developer bug, etc the formal process otherwise why bother if its not going to happen
16:46 < creffett|irssi> kensington: don't feed the trolls
17:24 < wltjr> jlec: btw to bad you werent in java today VERY different picture... ;) tomcat 8 will be in tree soon, and looks like the java team will have a meeting soon, and a VERY positive atmosphere
17:25 < wltjr> nice to be calling people names as well, that is a good attitude right :)
18:38 <@jmbsvicetto> wltjr: Please stop spamming us with your comments about devrel. Besides you being wrong, all of us have understood a long time ago your opinion
18:39 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have been part of the problem for a very long time, I should have known to even attempt to come back when you were around
18:39 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: again I awaiting a response, only reason I am still in here
18:39 <@jmbsvicetto> Yeah, I know very well your opinion and given all the spam in the past couple of days, it's obvious you haven't learned anything since 2008
18:40 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you can think that, and neither has gentoo nor you....
18:40 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you literally are NOT good for gentoo, bad things have happened with you involved
18:40 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I have been aware I watched you move around in gentoo
18:41 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I still remember me getting you involved with the foundation elections when I became a trustee
18:41 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: do you know how little has changed in java and in portage since 2008? is that a good thing?
18:42 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: why are you even talking to me if its not positive and constructive? or anyone? is anyone trying to help or just add fule to the fire for real?
18:42 < wltjr> where is the positive attitude in here?
18:42 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: its really funny how last time you were against my comments about devrel and its GONE....
18:42 <@jmbsvicetto> I've been around long enough to have seen your actions and I have a very good memory, so "history rewriting" with me won't fly
18:42 < wltjr> merged into comrel, if I was wrong why did that happen?
18:43 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I was around before you, and I have seen what you have done to gentoo since
18:43 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I predate you, and you have forgotten much
18:43 <@jmbsvicetto> wltjr: devrel isn't gone. Devrel and userrel were merged into comrel. All that devrel did, is still being done by comrel
18:43 < wltjr> its changed, its not the same thing, but you can tell yourself that
18:44 < wltjr> I read all about the -rels back in the day, I had opposition to them, part of why I did not get process in 2010 and 2011, people in devrel did not want me to get rid of that entity destroyin gentoo
18:44 < wltjr> debian doesn't have that, nor others, its what is killing gentoo
18:44 <@jmbsvicetto> right, you that have been out of Gentoo since 2008, who iirc were never even part of devrel, know more about it and Comrel than me. As I said, you haven't changed a bit
18:44 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: less you forget I resigned as a trustee and left as a developer, I was NEVER kicked out etc, and it was devrels actions why I left entirely
18:45 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: and devrel made MANY mistakes, like some of the bans were never lifted, that was not acceptable and people appologized to me
18:45 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: not to mention the person who complained to devrel retracted that, do you even reacall who it was? i do :)
18:45 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I have not been a dev, do you think I have not paid any attentin to gentoo?
18:46 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: maybe grep the tree for wlt and bugzilla and check dates > 2008
18:46 <@jmbsvicetto> Oh and fyi, I was on both DevRel and UserRel and was one of the people behind the merge
18:46 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: and you have been on council, infra, and just about everywhere else, just like Betelguuse
18:46 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I saw the presentation you gave with him, HORRIBLE, on the future of gentoo etc
18:46 <@jmbsvicetto> You weren't kicked out in 2008, but given your actions later, there was a decision by DevRel to mark you has having been kicked so that DevRel Lead would have veto power whenever you tried to join again
18:47 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I literally do blame you specifically and Betelgeuse who I respected for years when I worked with him, but his contributions stopped, he got involved in coucil had a bunch of titles in gentoo and did very little
18:47 < wltjr> like betelgeuse is lead of libbash, so you can bet it won't go anywhere
18:47 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I was NEVER kicked out, go look at the bug
18:47 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I resigned from the foundation, on the -nfp list
18:47 <@jmbsvicetto> That talk was with both Betelgeuse and NeddySeagoon
18:47 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: on my bug I said retire me
18:48 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you fool, i was kicked out please.... devrel NEVER had anything close to being able to kick me out
18:48 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: others commented on my bug for me not to leave like solar
18:48 <@jmbsvicetto> I just told you that you weren't kicked out, but because of your actions later when you tried to rejoin, which include a few "threats", DevRel had a vote about treating you has having been kicked out
18:49 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: it was a bad presentation, that is not anything personal to you
18:49 <@jmbsvicetto> Yes, and at the time I talked to rane about us doing like we were starting to do and give you 15 days to rethink your retirement
18:49 < wltjr> see so you all took action after I left to prevent my return, that is really nice to know
18:50 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: that was not it at all
18:50 < wltjr> i was banned for 15 days from committing
18:50 < wltjr> why? because I made 1 post to -nfp after being banned
18:50 < wltjr> the post was one out of disgust given what I just did for the foundation, and that I was harassed into resigning, then I get banned from the list, no one even cared about till I started posting on there
18:51 < wltjr> then a week later devrel shows up because 1 dev complained, the mailing list ban was over 1 complaint from 1 person, that is NOT policy
18:51 <@jmbsvicetto> Contratry to what you've been trying to argue for the past couple of days, the most important attribute to evalute on anyone trying to join is their behaviour. We can live with people with weak technical skills. We can't live with people that keep attacking others, can't work with others and when things don't go their way start making "threats"
18:51 < wltjr> and you do not treat a former trustee that way period
18:51 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: then why do the quizzes not have behavioral questions
18:51 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: do you realize your pissing in the wind?
18:51 <@jmbsvicetto> wltjr: If you go read your bug again, the comment about your 15 days ban was posted by me
18:52 < wltjr> tech people are notorious for bad behaviour, so gentoo is screwing itself right there, all other project deal
18:52 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: but even you said it yourself, all the bad behavior came after I left
18:52 < wltjr> fact is if devrel did nothing, there would be no bad behavior
18:53 < wltjr> devrel, jmbsvicetto and others part of devrel created the bad attitude which remains? why because you people haven't changed
18:53 <@jmbsvicetto> Yes, the bad behaviour showed up after you got banned
18:53 < wltjr> so i was never a problem as a developer
18:53 < wltjr> the bad behavior is a result of devrel
18:53 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have poor people skills, that is personal, that shows in the presentation
18:53 <@jmbsvicetto> At the point, no one felt like you needed to be kicked out or was trying to do that. It was your complete "blow-up" reaction, together with the threats that were done later that have lead to that
18:53 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have NO business NO qualifications for relations
18:54 < wltjr> I could not have been kicked out
18:54 < wltjr> and again, my attitude comes from devrel/comrel, get that entity out of my life and never any problems from me
18:54 < wltjr> I had a major technical issue with a former developer
18:54 <@jmbsvicetto> wltjr: As expected I see you haven't changed a bit.
18:54 < wltjr> I am palestinian, he is jewish in israel....
18:54 < wltjr> we worked it out via robbat2, NEVER devrel
18:55 < wltjr> since 2003, I have NEVER EVER seen devrel do anything that benefitted gentoo, any action took hurt gentoo
18:55 <@jmbsvicetto> wltjr: Therefore, I have better things to spend my time
18:55 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: again you can think so
18:55 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: again go grep the tree, go look in bugzilla
18:55 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: but you haven't change, and the crap you started in 2008 with me persists because of you, leave comrel move on, let new blood come in, stop holding on to the past and causing it to repeat
18:56 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you NEVER worked with me ever
18:56 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you cannot comment on anything about such
18:56 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have ONLY socialized with me, thus wasting my time and the rest
18:56 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: actually I did see you working once in java on mutli lib stuff, that wasn't necessary and no clue what you were doing nor others
18:57 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I recall looking at your cia.vc stats when that was live, you hardly contribute actual code and stuff
18:57 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I think when I left in 2008 I had more commits and activities
18:58 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: are there docs from you on gentoo.org? not comrel/devrel/council infra stuff, like my tomcat guides, or any of the gentoo java stuff I helped with back in the day
18:58 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you helped to drive away someone who possible contributed at least as much as you did maybe more, and that you NEVER worked with, you did not help me stay, you gave me reason to leave
18:59 < wltjr> I seriously hesitated before starting the process again because I saw you jmbsvicetto were still part of comrel, guess i should have waited till you moved on if that ever happens...
18:59 <@jmbsvicetto> wltjr: Stop spamming our channel
18:59 < wltjr> I so knew better, and things were proceeding with jlec till he talked to someone I can only assume, since the ohters are newer
18:59 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: its NOT YOUR CHANNEL
18:59 < wltjr> its a community channel, and I am still a foundation member fool
18:59 <@jmbsvicetto> If you want to stay here and wait for an answer, do it. But stop wasting our time
19:00 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: this belongs to the GENTOO FOUNDATION and it a public freenode channel and its hardly spam
19:00 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: if you don't like it, ingore it your IRC client should support
19:00 < wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have nothing good to say, so why say anything at all?
--- Log closed Thu Feb 19 19:03:30 2015