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Gentoo's Bugzilla – Attachment 397246 Details for
Bug 135927
Returning developer: William L. Thomson Jr (wltjr)
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irc log of #gentoo-comrel
2015-02-18.log (text/x-log), 50.30 KB, created by
William L. Thomson Jr.
on 2015-02-22 17:15:59 UTC
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Description:
irc log of #gentoo-comrel
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Creator:
William L. Thomson Jr.
Created:
2015-02-22 17:15:59 UTC
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50.30 KB
patch
obsolete
>--- Log opened Wed Feb 18 09:43:36 2015 >09:43 -!- Irssi: #gentoo-comrel: Total of 31 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 24 normal] >09:43 -!- Irssi: Join to #gentoo-comrel was synced in 1 secs >09:44 < wltjr> jlec: I think I am ready when ever you are, or if you want to setup a time, I would like to keep the review limited to 1 maybe 2 hours max, rather not spend 2 hours just to get half way through first quiz like my last time in quiz review, one of my 4 or 5 attempts at returning since I left... >10:00 <@jlec> wltjr: hi >10:00 <@jlec> wltjr: we have a slight problem. >10:00 <@jlec> it seems you have a track record in gentoo which I was not aware of. >10:01 <@jlec> The other comrel members demanded some contributions from your side to judge how you are working in a team these days >10:03 <@jlec> "I would like to keep the review limited to 1 maybe 2 hours max" is something which shouldn't be in there. It is not up to you to decide when we are finished. >10:03 <@jlec> But as you have lots of knowledge I am sure we won't have long sessions >10:04 <@jlec> wltjr: So I would like to ask to do contributions via the rsync2git or proxy-maint project and get involved in gentoo via bgo, irc and overlays so that the team gets confident in your returning. >10:05 < wltjr> jlec: an ebuild of mine just went into tree, I have a IPv6 patched qmail I have been running for a few months and tomcat 8 ebuild... >10:06 < wltjr> jlec: you can ask java team members... I have been porting java-config to C from python.... >10:06 < wltjr> jlec: what more work do you want to see? >10:06 <@jlec> wltjr: I think the social part is more important. >10:06 < wltjr> jlec: I have submitted ebuilds in bugzilla, I pointed out one >10:06 < wltjr> jlec: again go into #gentoo-java and talk to those I work with if you want to know >10:06 < wltjr> jlec: if you want to bring up social bs, then your not actually concerned with technical contributions and the rest >10:07 < wltjr> jlec: and again my track record speaks for itself, I got gentoo a bank account, redid by laws, and got it legal again >10:07 < wltjr> jlec: no one else in gentoo has done that, and since then the foundation has fallen aside >10:07 < wltjr> jlec: so ask yourself, do you want packages in portage updated no one has in 8 years? >10:07 < wltjr> things like servletapi still remain, despite my efforst to remove in 2008... >10:08 < wltjr> fine by me if gentoo does not have tomcat 8 or ipv6 support qmail, all other distros do.... >10:08 <@jlec> All that can be contributed by rsync2git and proxy-maint project >10:09 < wltjr> jlec: I got grief last time from those in devrel and I had comments about devrel going away, and where is devrel now gone, merged into comrel with userel.... >10:09 <@jlec> Of course we like to see your contributions, but technical aspect aren't everything >10:09 < wltjr> jlec: ok never mind, thanks for being the same as others >10:09 < wltjr> jlec: bye >10:10 <@jlec> wltjr: that behaviour you are showing right now is on spot with the concerns of the team. You should start prooving the oposite. >10:12 < wltjr> jlec: dude I care less you have things so twisted >10:12 < wltjr> how has anyone been helpful? why should I be any different >10:13 < wltjr> am I being shown respect? thanks for contributions? or willingness to do what others have not in 7+ years >10:13 < wltjr> jlec: are you trying to improve gentoo or not? for real, this social crap is BS >10:13 < wltjr> jlec: I have gotten that same crap for many years now, and you expect me to be any differnet? >10:14 < wltjr> jlec: you cannot bring up a single technical issue with my work then and now, if all you have to go in is social then.... >10:14 < wltjr> jlec: but specifically what have I done bad socially recently tell me? >10:14 <@jlec> wltjr: exactly that. Be different. >10:14 <@jlec> wltjr: you told me how much disrepect other adn >10:14 < wltjr> jlec: good luck with gentoo, gentoo needs to BE DIFFERENT >10:14 <@jlec> then tell me I am just like them >10:14 < wltjr> jlec: fyi you have stupid questions on the quiz >10:14 <@jlec> that's a personal attack >10:15 < wltjr> 21 on the end of ebuild quiz is stupid >10:15 <@jlec> let me see >10:16 < wltjr> gcc needs to be modified like java, who cares what your system gcc is, if I have 4.6 4.7 and 4.8 installed, if I do depend >= gcc 4.8, then it should use that one even if I have 4.6 set >10:16 < wltjr> ebuilds should NOT need to be modified, that is stupid >10:16 < wltjr> eclass should handle selecting and setting the correct gcc for the environment >10:16 < wltjr> that way you can have many different gcc's installed and recompile the package with each if you so choose to, just like you can with java now... >10:17 < wltjr> I can have java 1.6 as my system, but compile stuff with 1.7 and 1.8 >10:17 < wltjr> so gentoo has kept people out with technical contributions, added stupid question to the quiz and adding code to ebuilds that should be handled in eclass logic.... >10:18 < wltjr> jlec: you realize I also created many official docs when I was a dev, in addition to the foundation and other htings >10:18 < wltjr> jlec: what do you know about the foundation? what is its present state? where are its financials? >10:18 < wltjr> jlec: FYI social aspects were brought up in my local lug as well >10:19 < wltjr> jlec: you know bill gates and steve jobbs are not nice guys socially.... >10:19 <@jlec> wltjr: you can stop. You have proven your point. >10:19 < wltjr> jlec: social skills and tech skills tend to be at odds, recruiters in real life love me because of my social skills in business >10:19 < wltjr> jlec: yes and you have prevented gentoo from technical contributions >10:19 < wltjr> jlec: go look how much java stuff is not maintained, or firebird, or assp, or qmail, or other thigns.... >10:20 < wltjr> jlec: much less what I just pointed out about gcc and question 21 that was added in recent years rather than doing things the proper technical way >10:20 < wltjr> jlec: or that I just contributed an ebuild to one of the few active java devs who was VERY thankful and committed right away to tree yesterday, there are hundreds more like that >10:21 < wltjr> jlec: so once again comrel recruiting is screwing gentoo and gentoo users for what reason? >10:21 < wltjr> every day less people will use gentoo, and I guess people are ok with that, heck I could go join exherbo or others arch, etc before I can join gentoo, pathetic.... >10:22 < wltjr> jlec: and people will listen to me outside of gentoo, because what I did for the foudnation matters more in the real world than most technical contributions.... but few realize such.... >12:25 < wltjr> jlec: pretty funny and nice timing https://groups.google.com/d/msg/jaxlug/Ktvwxf6RS9Q/GRKkW11UXyYJ "People who work with computers are infamously anti-social." >12:27 < wltjr> jlec: fyi my local lug fell apart i use to lead and run most of that, I was acused of doing to much it beign mylug etc, I backed off things fell apart, recently they banned me in June from posting "drama" to the list, which has since fallen silent, a not so nice post of mine recently stirred the pot and many are commenting including those that left the area I mentioned here like andrew henderson >12:30 < mgorny> well, you don't have to be social really >12:30 < mgorny> not that i agree with our methods >12:30 < mgorny> but you have to be able to handle some basic interaction stuff >12:30 < mgorny> like being able to work with others and give users consistent experience >12:30 < wltjr> mgorny: seems my recruitment process has died because of social bs not anything technical or otherwise... >12:30 < mgorny> it's no good when some maintainers refuse to follow a global policy because they don't like it personally >12:30 < wltjr> mgorny: exactly the problem, people are not talking to peole I work with >12:31 < wltjr> mgorny: even when jlec showed up in #gentoo-java, caster made a comment, I haven't worked with him in years, and he has avoided doing much, I think lost interest, busy with life, etc >12:31 < mgorny> or when someone is simply an asshole and causes other devs not want to work anymore >12:31 < mgorny> i didn't knwo caster is still in gentoo >12:31 < mgorny> so many people retired lately >12:32 < wltjr> mgorny: many cause me to hold my nose to gentoo and run away for years, I only return for users sake no developers >12:32 < mgorny> yes, that's a good point >12:32 < wltjr> mgorny: yes, and really not sure what he is doing in recent years, but did screwe me today with negative comments and skepticism based on things from like 2008-2011, really current stuff >12:32 < mgorny> i heard people don't change ;) >12:33 < wltjr> mgorny: despite that I am working on java-config in C, which is a core piece of java on gentoo, or my ebuild contributions etc >12:33 < mgorny> i just get balder and more grumpy ;) >12:33 < wltjr> mgorny: our core doesn't change, and I am also getting balder not so much grumpy, but less tolerant of bs >12:33 < wltjr> mgorny: few years ago get in my way I might have been nicer, these days with death getting closer every day, time is of the essence... :) >12:34 < wltjr> mgorny: but when people get in the way of progress I become abrasive >12:35 < mgorny> well, as i said before (i think i did), i can't help you much with being recruited >12:35 < mgorny> maybe encourage ;) >12:35 < mgorny> but if you decide to go through pull requests, our doors are open to your commits >12:44 < wltjr> mgorny: everything is done I was ready to be processed but then bs came up, social past etc >12:44 < wltjr> mgorny: could have spent the time with jlec in review today but seems it went a different direction and seems all is lost now, I doubt I will return short of a miracle now, clearly I am not wanted >12:45 < mgorny> wltjr: well, you need to try to be nicer >12:45 < wltjr> mgorny: pretty sure its not going to happen now, have to ask others why because I cannot say, its surely not for the good of gentoo >12:45 < mgorny> a lot of burnout happening lately >12:45 < wltjr> mgorny: its a two way street, I respond in kind :) >12:45 < mgorny> people overreact >12:45 < wltjr> mgorny: but its also insulting when people are unaware of the past and do not take any time to learn about gentoo >12:45 < wltjr> mgorny: so I have to constantly prove myself to new people unware of the past >12:46 < wltjr> mgorny: others won't let go of the past, and are doing very little today >12:46 < mgorny> no offense but gentoo is running fast, even these days >12:46 < wltjr> Â >12:46 < mgorny> so i guess people need to make sure you don't have some bad old habits >12:46 < wltjr> mgorny: in what sense? you know how much stale and outdate stuff there is? >12:46 < mgorny> i know >12:46 < wltjr> mgorny: any issue people have with me they create, if they work with me and we get stuff done no issue >12:47 < mgorny> but some things actually changed, eclasses, policies >12:47 < wltjr> mgorny: if that start focusing on how I am acting, bs stuff, then it creates drama and the exact problem they seek to avoid >12:47 < wltjr> mgorny: its really not me creating it, its the environment >12:47 < wltjr> mgorny: like casters comments today he could have been polite, nice, greeted me, but no it was just negativity >12:47 < mgorny> sorry, i don't know the deails of that >12:48 < wltjr> mgorny: he has not been around for the past week or so as I have been actively working and interacting with others, not to mention encouraging and supporting others to get on board >12:48 < wltjr> not only will I not be a dev now, I doubt gnu_andrew will >12:48 < wltjr> I was helping to motivate him... given that he works for redhat, seeing the bs time loss I go threw, why would he bother? >12:49 < wltjr> I doubt gnu_andrew can say anything negative about me socially, other than what he has seen with others >12:49 < wltjr> mgorny: I have never had bad interactions with anyone I work with in gentoo ever >12:49 < mgorny> didn't you just have one with jlec? :) >12:49 < wltjr> mgorny: the bad stuff came from others making comments not contributing things technically and that starts the bs >12:49 < wltjr> mgorny: sorta, and who started that? me? >12:49 < mgorny> but that's not a big problem as i see it >12:49 < wltjr> mgorny: did I bring up the stuff from the past no he did after talking to others >12:49 < mgorny> as long as users don't get hurt in the process >12:50 < wltjr> mgorny: NONE of this ever involved users >12:50 < wltjr> ever >12:50 < mgorny> yes >12:50 < wltjr> mgorny: when devrel banned me from -nfp list it was not users who were effected >12:50 < mgorny> i'm just talking generally >12:50 < mgorny> if people have problems, that can happen >12:50 < wltjr> mgorny: it was 1 dev who complained, and weeks later I got a 15 day supension because I made 1 post to -nfp after I was banned >12:50 < mgorny> if they stop working and retire, that's worse >12:50 < wltjr> mgorny: no I get your point, this was all internal bs that just ended up hurting gentoo users >12:51 < mgorny> if they run into revert wars, this definitely needs action >12:51 < wltjr> mgorny: that is exactly what happened >12:51 < wltjr> mgorny: I was harrassed and got so much grief I resigned from the foudnation >12:51 < wltjr> then devrel pissed me off weeks later and I left as a dev >12:51 < wltjr> because of things people never fully understood they have been judging my reactions and actions ever since, not realizing they are fuel to the fire they keep lighting >12:53 < wltjr> mgorny: look at these it says allot I left in 2008 >12:53 < wltjr> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.nfp >12:53 < wltjr> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.java >12:54 < wltjr> this next one has nothing to do with me, but shows around 2008 bad stuff was going on that hurt gentoo development it declined >12:54 < wltjr> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel >12:54 < wltjr> those graphs alone say quiet allot >12:55 < wltjr> mgorny: not sure if you saw this the other day https://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/finances/2010q3.xml >12:56 < wltjr> mgorny: that is when the $9k went missing, and no clue why it took years for that adjustment, pretty sure we were trustees for a while before that adjustment so it should have come at the beginning >12:57 < wltjr> mgorny: but check this out, go find a linux distro that does not have tomcat 8, or a ipv6 enabled version of qmail, of course gentoo has neither, and its really sad that things are more current on debian than gentoo... >12:58 < wltjr> version of sun javamail from like 2009 I provided current one that fordford committed yesterday, so many java ebuilds out of date and other stuff >12:58 < wltjr> most any package I maintained has been without a maintainer since 2008... 7 years... no one has taken over... >12:58 < mrueg> wltjr: you're away of https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo-portage-rsync-mirror ? >12:58 < mrueg> aware* >12:59 < wltjr> mrueg: no, is that another proxy to tree thing like sunrise? >13:00 < mrueg> wltjr: better than sunrise. >13:00 < wltjr> I am not a fan of proxying, I proxy maintained things for a while through sunrise >13:00 < mrueg> sunrise doesn't proxy >13:00 < wltjr> I dislike anything that requires someone elses time, why take the time of 2 to do the job of 1? >13:00 < mrueg> it's just a user maintained overlay. >13:00 < wltjr> mrueg: I mean more in the form of user contributions, I prefer users to become devs and contribute to tree rather than overlays >13:01 < mrueg> wltjr: so you think the kernel development model is bad? >13:01 < wltjr> mrueg: I am not an overlay fan at all, I prefer the old package mask approach >13:01 < wltjr> mrueg: what works for one project doesn't necessarily work for others >13:01 < wltjr> mrueg: things going into the kernel are a bit more serious, you can put things in the gentoo tree that do not effect any other package >13:02 < wltjr> few things you can do with the kernel that will not have effect on other things in the kernel or the entire kernel >13:02 < wltjr> but like back in the day when I wanted to check out enlightenment I unmasked I didn't use an overlay >13:02 < wltjr> vapier/spanky had it all masked, you just unmasked >13:03 < wltjr> I feel that is better because its easier for people to unmask than to add an overlay etc, so tends to get more exposure and the more eyes on something the better, overlays can be overlooked and ignored if even used >13:03 < mrueg> wltjr: well in kde the transition to plasma 5 made it necessary to work in an overlay >13:04 < wltjr> mrueg: sure there are reasons for overlays, I am not saying they should NEVER be used, they have just been overused, and things that could be worked on in tree via p.mask tend to be done in overlays >13:04 < mrueg> you don't really want to work on that with per package commits >13:04 < wltjr> mrueg: toolchain changes likely should be in overlay and eclass stuff as well >13:04 < wltjr> not sure you can mask an eclass >13:04 < mrueg> not really >13:05 < mrueg> you can just add multiple die's ;) >13:05 < wltjr> mrueg: I am just saying in general become a dev should be eaiser, more should be devs than users contributing to overlays :) >13:05 < wltjr> rather than proxy commit, they should be devs and commit directly and not require anothers time to do the job of 1 >13:05 < wltjr> effciency >13:05 < mrueg> wltjr: well your definition of developer may differ from others. >13:06 < wltjr> mrueg: anyone will to contribute to making gentoo better >13:06 < mrueg> I'd say we have "Trusted developers", "Developers", "Contributors" and "Users" >13:06 < wltjr> mrueg: commit access :) >13:06 < mrueg> trusted developers have direct access to the tree >13:06 < mrueg> developers are able to proxy their commits >13:07 < wltjr> mrueg: what is the difference between trusteed and devlopers? I doubt that is documented anywhere, and the foudnation I don't think has classificatinos >13:07 < wltjr> anyone proxying is not a developer >13:07 < wltjr> they are a contributing user >13:07 < mrueg> wltjr: why not? >13:07 < wltjr> because they do not have commit access >13:07 < wltjr> mrueg: they are not listed as a gentoo developer on the list simple enough >13:08 < wltjr> you can refer to them as what ever, but there is no official trusted vs developer, you either have commit access as a developer or you don't >13:08 < mrueg> wltjr: this is my definition, not the one of gentoo ;) >13:08 < wltjr> mrueg: sure many have their own, but this is covered in foudnation by laws >13:08 < wltjr> mrueg: because it also effects foundation membership >13:08 < mrueg> trusted devs have shown that they were capable to follow rules at a single point in time (when they submitted their quizzes) >13:09 < wltjr> mrueg: that has nothing to do with anything, any issues with me have nothing to do with quizzes or my skills :) >13:09 < wltjr> mrueg: allot of rules and policies in gentoo are undocumented then adn now >13:09 < wltjr> mrueg: but trusted devs sometimes do harmful things as I was told someone kept breaking python and had to be dealt with >13:10 < mrueg> wltjr: I'm just wondering, the time you invested in multiple discussions here over the last few days, could have easily spent in getting the packages you're talking about polished and committed to the tree ;) >13:10 < wltjr> me I never broke anything, no user ever had issue with me, just a handful of devs, literally a handful, doubt you could find more than maybe 10 with direct knowledge, most go on hear say, which is very accurate and factual >13:10 < wltjr> mrueg: I am quite aware.... why I am pissed off at those wasting time vs making shit happen >13:11 < wltjr> mrueg: I could also be a dev now with cvs commit access and commit that stuff to tree, but someone decided we needed to discuss social stuff, so here we are in the quagmire again >13:12 < mrueg> wltjr: well I don't love quizzes either. I'd love to drop the technical part of the quizzes if a user has shown that she's capable of working with ebuilds via proxy-maintainers or mgorny's github tree mirror project >13:12 < wltjr> mrueg: I could have been working on my java-config port, as I have been, much less other ebuilds, i had planned to submit tomcat 8 ebuild I made over a month ago along with others to bugzilla since fordfrog committed one from yesterday right away, but still why bother fordfrog I could have done all this directly myself >13:12 < wltjr> mrueg: I haven't even got to quiz review, jlec side tracked things, ask him why >13:12 < wltjr> mrueg: if he just did quiz review and kept it all business.... >13:13 < wltjr> mrueg: since I can't commit, I can just bitch not my choice, but I have tons of things to work on, like things that pay my bills being self employed >13:13 < wltjr> my involvement with gentoo then and now is NOT profitable for me, it costs me dearly >13:13 < wltjr> its why I have no tolerance for wasting time and not getting stuff done and become a jerk >13:13 < mrueg> wltjr: neither it is for any of us, we're all volunteers. >13:14 < mrueg> wltjr: just try to work with https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo-portage-rsync-mirror >13:14 < wltjr> mrueg: so why waste anyones time? people keep bring up the past not me >13:14 < mrueg> mgorny and others are really quick in getting things into the tree. >13:14 < wltjr> mrueg: again I had planned to do quiz review with jlec today, he sidetracked that >13:14 < mrueg> plus you get a free review of your ebuild to even improve yourself. >13:14 < wltjr> mrueg: its not a practical long term solution again I did proxy for a while, you cannot maintain things via proxy >13:15 < wltjr> mrueg: servletapi is horrible old how can I proxy remove that? >13:15 < mrueg> wltjr: the issue of proxy maintainers is that bugzilla is not a peer review platform per se. >13:15 < wltjr> the amoutn of work needed to be done is really tremendous it cannot be proxied >13:15 < mrueg> wltjr: just add a pull request that removes the packages from the tree >13:15 < wltjr> mrueg: most of my contributions don't need review just commit >13:15 < wltjr> mrueg: again its all a waste of time >13:15 < mrueg> wltjr: well then even better, the reviewer has less work. >13:15 < wltjr> direct commit is most efficient >13:16 < wltjr> mrueg: I don't need to do any of this, I have my own local overlay :) >13:16 < mrueg> i'm sorry i don't have access to rsync mirrors. >13:16 < wltjr> why do I care if gentoo has tomcat 8 or other updated packages? its only users who lose out :) >13:16 < mrueg> I'm just proxying it via cvs >13:16 < wltjr> mrueg: I don't need to be a dev, its just the most efficient way of getting stuff done and there is substantial work, packages to update, mask, remove entirely etc >13:17 < wltjr> mrueg: again how can I proxy remove servletapi? >13:17 < wltjr> I spent months as a dev working on removing that >13:17 < wltjr> in 2008 >13:17 < wltjr> fyi servletapi literally is tomcat-serlvet-api, so its a duplicate package >13:17 < mrueg> wltjr: https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo-portage-rsync-mirror fork it. do the changes locally to the tree. add a pull request with your changes. >13:18 < mrueg> then someone will pick it up and apply the changes to the tree >13:18 < wltjr> mrueg: that wastes time and I am simply not interested in any form or proxying >13:18 < wltjr> mrueg: then, if they have time, when they have time, that will vary day after day, its no way to long term maintain or contribute >13:18 < wltjr> it a waste of time... >13:19 < mgorny> wltjr: your attitude is not helpful >13:19 < mgorny> so far more time has been wasted on discussions >13:19 < wltjr> I am being provided alternatives to what I am seeking, how is that helpful to me? >13:19 < wltjr> mgorny: who has the attitude of helping me get back on board? >13:19 < wltjr> mgorny: I have only had 1 person make any positive comments, fordforg, because he needs my work... >13:20 < mgorny> i'd also love to see your work here >13:20 < wltjr> go look at oracle-javamail in tree... >13:20 < mgorny> but i feel like you're not treating us as equals >13:20 < wltjr> i Just contributed that... >13:20 < wltjr> mgorny: how am I being treated? >13:20 < wltjr> its a 2 way street >13:21 < wltjr> maybe self reflect and start with how you treat others before you comment on how they are acting etc >13:21 < mgorny> did i treat you bad? >13:21 < wltjr> the more you interact and get to know me you will learn I am quite polite and respectful, but I treat others as they treat me, if you are dismissive then I am the same >13:21 < wltjr> mgorny: not bad per se, but suggesting I take alternatives routes to what I am seeking is not really helpful >13:22 < wltjr> thats saying I have no clue what I am talking about, I have no idea of the work that needs to be done or the processs >13:22 < wltjr> I know for a fact things that need to be done can't be proxied, best I could do is instruct someone, go mask this package, remove this one, update these deps etc >13:22 < wltjr> its a freaking waste of time >13:23 < mgorny> wltjr: i think you underestimate the power of pull requests here >13:23 < mgorny> we can test & apply basically any change requested >13:23 < wltjr> mgorny: also not realizing what I am going through just to update stuff I do not need to for myself, I am good, I am trying to do this stuff for others.... and it cost me financailly dearly >13:23 < mgorny> ebuilds, eclasses, profiles, p.mask >13:23 < wltjr> mgorny: how can you remove a package >13:23 < mgorny> git rm >13:23 < mgorny> we have a scripts to merge that >13:23 < mrueg> well if one doen't have a driver's license, one is not allowed to drive. we suggested to take the bus instead. both will get one to the same goal. getting his or her packages delivered. ;) >13:23 < wltjr> again your not helping me to become a dev, just keeping me outside but still wanting my contributions.... >13:24 < mgorny> wltjr: but i'm talking about using the rsync->git mirror >13:24 < mgorny> i can't help you to become a dev since i'm not a recruiter >13:24 < wltjr> mrueg: I am being denied the process of getting a license, being told to take the bus when I am applying for a license >13:24 < mgorny> i can help you however i can if they don't want to help you >13:24 < wltjr> mgorny: actually your wrong, you could talk to recuiters and others to help me become one >13:25 < wltjr> there is ALWAYS something someone can do if they think and make some effort, but its easier to say there is nothing I can do , than to think of something to do to help out >13:25 < mgorny> last time i talked to recruiters, they told me i'm stupid and have no clue about recruiting so i should shut up ;) >13:25 < wltjr> but again this is not just me, I bet there will be less devs that come on board simply because I am not a dev >13:25 < mgorny> wltjr: and now you're again showing the negative attitude >13:25 < wltjr> I bet $ that gnu_andrew will not become a dev, why? because I am the only one talking to him about such, and I really wanted to see him become a dev than me, and I am not wanting just myself to become a dev but others >13:26 < mgorny> i acknowledge your past contributions and skills >13:26 < wltjr> mgorny: how am I being negative? by saying you could do something to help me get recruited? >13:26 < mrueg> wltjr: providing you some links that include helpful material to become a gentoo dev: https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/recruiters/mentor.xml https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/ >13:26 < wltjr> mgorny: there is a present contributions as well, and only reason I am not contribiting more is people keep making it more difficult for me rather than other way aroudn >13:27 < mrueg> if you need any help #gentoo-dev-help works, too. >13:27 < wltjr> mgorny: I have read all those befoer >13:27 < mgorny> sure >13:27 < wltjr> I helped write the freaking java quiz... >13:27 < wltjr> I wrote the by laws.... >13:27 < mgorny> but think how others feel about you >13:27 < wltjr> I know more about gentoo than most... on many areas, that is the problem most have with me, I know the problems and might seek to fix those >13:28 < wltjr> mgorny: I know, there are MANY more who have no issue with me than do, its just the ones that do are the gate keepers duh... >13:28 < zlogene> wltjr, and now java-herd mentee submit this java-quiz to recruiters, dunno why :D >13:28 < wltjr> same problem for years >13:28 < mgorny> sorry if i get this wrong in english but you look to be boasting all the time >13:28 < zlogene> not all recruiters know java >13:28 < mgorny> i did this, i did that >13:28 < wltjr> zlogene: don't even get me started, betelgeuse claimed conflict of interest as to being my recruiter one of the 4 or 5 times I have tried to return >13:28 < mgorny> for many modern gentoo devs, you are someone they don't know >13:29 < wltjr> zlogene: he was the ONLY recruiter with knowledge to review a java quiz... :) >13:29 < wltjr> mgorny: if they don't know about me, that shows how they do not know about gentoo >13:29 < mgorny> it doesn't feel good when you join back and you keep bragging about your past >13:29 < wltjr> mgorny: again me getting gentoo legal again should be something people know about, not my fault they do not, that is a pretty major contribution, much less others >13:30 < mgorny> so put it in a bio >13:30 < wltjr> mgorny: its because there is no respect for such, most treat former board members very differently >13:30 < mgorny> i'm hearing this for 4th time already, i think >13:30 < zlogene> wltjr, yes, now i'n recruiting new guy fir java herd, he submitted java quiz too, not sure if i can even check it :D >13:30 < mgorny> the point of free software is that people are equal >13:30 < wltjr> zlogene: if you need help let me know.... >13:30 < mgorny> technical skills is what matters >13:31 < wltjr> zlogene: I am re-writing java-config in C and came across a variety of issues and things >13:31 < wltjr> mgorny: no one has ever had a single issue with my technical skills, they just want to gripe about social, and they really have no idea >13:31 < mgorny> if you want to do something good, i will like it because it is good, not because you did X in the past >13:31 < zlogene> wltjr, we still on ebuild-quiz, so, there are a lot of work to do >13:31 < wltjr> where I am at in in the south, sothern hospitatliy, respect and politeness are very important, but if I am rude to soemone they will be right back >13:32 < wltjr> zlogene: I think that is Chewi or another, I had been talking to Chewi for several years about becoming a dev >13:32 < wltjr> most of the java team I helped bring on board and encouraged, I plan to do that again..., caster, ali_bush, fordfrog, etc >13:33 < zlogene> wltjr, you are right, as you can see i'm on the header of his developer bug >13:33 < wltjr> I know allot sounds like braging, but at the saem time I am kicking myself, I really did not think I was so key, I though many would step up in my absence, but it hasn't been the case, so I started to wonder is it my fault, am I to blame, should I have stayed, should I return? >13:34 < wltjr> also from making some perl ebuilds recently, none of the quizzes prepare you for that >13:34 < wltjr> perl ebuilds are quite different with cpan integration etc >13:34 < mgorny> that's why i prefer visible contributions ;) >13:35 * zlogene wears perl team lead hat and says "gcpan is broken" >13:35 < wltjr> mgorny: I pointed out a case the other day, I submitted ebuilds for eclipse-ecj, I noticed problems in the ebuild that was presently going stable, I corrected such, but figured there might be a tweak or two needed, rather than provide me feedback, I had wanted the ebuild to be reviewed, if anything was amiss, correct before commit >13:36 < wltjr> mgorny: instead I got nit picking on rm -f not needing || die, so my ebuild was ingored, the one in tree was bumped, and guess what remains? rm -f || die.... >13:36 < wltjr> mgorny: so its not very motivating to show you work for others to nit pick, then to ingore, and commit garbage to tree >13:37 < wltjr> mgorny: my 1st ebuild jdbc-jaybird, i spent months reworking the syntax, java stuff kept changing etc, I kept tweaking >13:37 < wltjr> mgorny: that ebuild is still messed up... I wasted so much time in showing others my work on that stuff, it really did little in the end >13:38 < wltjr> mgorny: but given that most of what I will do is in java, you can ask most any of them, or grep the tree for my username, though not sure I am always given credit for some contributions despite policy, I really don't care about credit, just others want to see the owrk >13:39 < mgorny> wltjr: yes, that's a bad thing to happen >13:39 < mgorny> you can CC qa@ in that case >13:39 < wltjr> mgorny: but in quiz review its pretty clear to know I have a clue what I am talking about and have knowledge on gentoo etc >13:40 < wltjr> more of my work is not visible because I dislike proxying etc, when I was proxy maintaining firebird at one point my business email was in the meta data... bugs were being assigned to me could not fix in tree etc >13:41 < mgorny> bugs being assigned is the point of proxy maintaining >13:41 < wltjr> end of the day I do not lose out by not being a dev, I do feel gentoo does and users definitley do when it comes to packages, its sad that recruiting and others have not realized or care about such for 7+ yeras now >13:41 < mgorny> i don't know who you worked with >13:42 < wltjr> mgorny: patrick, my point was how do you assign bugs to someone who is not even a dev, they can't fix directly >13:42 < wltjr> you really cannot proxy change stuff, how would I proxy change p.mask? >13:42 < wltjr> or proxy a package removal >13:43 < mgorny> you can do that with git mirror >13:43 < wltjr> seriously right now, who wants to proxy remove serlvetapi, let see how trival that is... >13:43 < mgorny> well, last rites are a bit harder but i don't think it would be impossible >13:43 < mgorny> in fact, if you did this right this would be a good proof of your skills >13:44 < wltjr> mgorny: never said impossible, just a waste of another persons time >13:44 < wltjr> its NEVER smart to have 2 do the job of 1, nothing you can say makes that efficient >13:44 < wltjr> mgorny: proof of my skills is NOT the issue, its ANYTHING but >13:44 < wltjr> again I am re-writing java-config in C, that is FAR beyond ebuild maintaining or anything on quizzes >13:44 < mgorny> it's smart to have more pairs of eyes whenever possible >13:45 < mgorny> wltjr: and how is that related to being a gentoo developer? :) >13:45 < wltjr> mgorny: no disagreement there, more eyes are on tree than git mirror :) >13:45 < mgorny> that's being an upstream for java-config >13:45 < wltjr> mgorny: java-config is a gentoo project, gentoo is the upstream... >13:45 < mgorny> java team, likely >13:45 < wltjr> mgorny: its a Gentoo specific tool, no other distro has a java-config >13:45 < mgorny> you can join java team without having gentoo repo commit access >13:46 < wltjr> mgorny: no one is working on that, I right now know more about java-config than likely any other java dev... >13:46 < wltjr> mgorny: your telling me things I know, I created the old java team and organized meetings >13:46 < wltjr> which meetings fell apart after >13:46 < wltjr> as did the team >13:46 < mgorny> that's what happens in gentoo >13:47 < mgorny> i'm no longer encouraging people to become developers >13:47 < wltjr> I could do what gnu_andrew has proxying icedtea, till I saw his comments about new stuff being in overlay for a week, and knowing he maintains openjdk its no way to do that long term >13:47 < mgorny> i just say, do what you find convenient for you >13:48 < mgorny> wltjr: you can suggest the git mirror to gnu_andrew, that's the faster than some overlay with java team access >13:48 < wltjr> mgorny: why he hell not? everyone should be a developer, what is with the elitist crap? gentoo is not that great, it might have once been, but given distros like debian have more current packages, really people need to get over themselves and realize gentoo needs help bad >13:48 < mgorny> if they tell me i can merge his commits without review, it's <12h >13:48 < wltjr> mgorny: I suggested he be a dev >13:48 < wltjr> omg >13:48 < mgorny> wltjr: i just respect people's time >13:48 < mgorny> i see how bad recruitment in gentoo is, and i tell them how the reality looks like >13:49 < wltjr> mgorny: you have no idea, few know about iceatea like gnu_andrew, review his ebuilds hardly.... >13:49 < wltjr> mgorny: then get involved with recruiting project and make it better >13:49 < wltjr> fix what is broken don't circumvent >13:49 < mgorny> i know he is the best >13:49 < mgorny> but i still would use a formal confirmation >13:49 < mgorny> hmm, though he's listed as maintainer >13:49 < wltjr> mgorny: are you full aware of java on gentoo? >13:49 < mgorny> so no, i don't need formal confimration ;) >13:49 < wltjr> mgorny: can you do the quiz and review them? >13:50 < mgorny> sorry, what do you mean now? >13:50 < mgorny> i can formally be a mentor, if that's what you ask >13:50 < mgorny> not that i have the qualities >13:50 < wltjr> mgorny: there is a java quiz one sec I will get you a link >13:51 < wltjr> mgorny: to be a gentoo java developer there were actually 3 quizzes >13:51 < mgorny> no, i don't do java :) >13:51 < mgorny> i just do generic user reviews/merging >13:51 < wltjr> mgorny: ok so how could you review anything from gnu_andrew or me? :) >13:51 < mgorny> user->developer interaction, basic ebuild syntax, hints and tips >13:51 < wltjr> mgorny: its quite different >13:51 < mgorny> generic rules apply always >13:52 < wltjr> mgorny: this is not that, you would miss things for sure that are not general syntax but java specific >13:52 < mgorny> like ||die >13:52 < mgorny> sure >13:52 < wltjr> mgorny: NO, why there is a quiz, there is allot that is different >13:52 < mgorny> that's why i would CC maintainers >13:52 < wltjr> mgorny: no one maintains tomcat, I was the maintainer.... >13:52 < mgorny> and ask them for review >13:52 < wltjr> mgorny: I made the only tomcat docs that others have based theirs off >13:52 < mgorny> it's listed as java@, so i CC java people >13:52 < wltjr> mgorny: forfrog had questions about my oracle-javamail, and did not realize I had corrected thing already... >13:52 < mgorny> and ask them if they could review >13:53 < wltjr> mgorny: yes and I am telling you I can do the review you cant :) >13:53 < wltjr> mgorny: so if I show you tomcat 8 ebuild, who will you have review that? :) >13:53 < mgorny> long story short, when i proxy for someone, i take the responsibility >13:53 < mgorny> if i'm in doubt, i follow the formal rules for authorities >13:53 < wltjr> what formal rules >13:54 < wltjr> much of this is not documented, gentoos famouse adhere to this undocumented policy >13:54 < mgorny> <maintainer/> tags, for a start >13:54 < wltjr> I just did the quizzes where does it talk about CC'ing a team for review :) >13:54 < mgorny> if i don't know java, i ask java people for help >13:54 < wltjr> mgorny: again if a package has no maintainer, because I was the maintainer and no one has replaced me in 7 years >13:55 < wltjr> mgorny: and I can provide that help, yet i am still having to prove/show my skills :) >13:55 < wltjr> its funnny >13:55 < mgorny> that depends >13:55 < mgorny> if you want to proxy-maintain it, i don't request much proof from you >13:55 < wltjr> I don't want to, i havent I did that for a bit and have NO interest >13:55 < mgorny> if you want to go full-dev, it's not me who you end up dealing with ;) >13:56 < wltjr> its either direct commit or I will keep things local, that is most efficient time wise for me >13:56 < wltjr> mgorny: I know this you stated such many times, but you could also be talking to recruiters as to why they are not processing me :) >13:56 < wltjr> recuiters should be acting on the will of the community not their own internal convos >13:57 < mgorny> your attitude is not helpful again >13:57 < mgorny> now you're saying 'i want it all or fuck you because i'm important' >13:57 < wltjr> I myself for my own reasons do not need to be a dev, do not care about such, its not condusive to my business etc, I just hate seeing other distros have things available gentoo does not, if others are ok with that, I can deal >13:58 < wltjr> mgorny: no, I am saying I want to work efficiently where I can have the greatest impact, or not >13:58 < mgorny> that's the attitude that has been troubling gentoo for long >13:58 < wltjr> mgorny: I have other things more important to me >13:58 < mgorny> that's the vapier attitude >13:58 < wltjr> mgorny: well then its more the attitude of those keeping others out then ;) >13:58 < wltjr> mgorny: why not include all? what does exlusion get you? >13:59 < mgorny> why not? because i don't have time to clean up after them >13:59 < wltjr> a rh buddy for years has tried to get me to contribute to fedora, why should I not spend my time there, or arch or other, exherbo :) >13:59 < mgorny> i'm not saying the current practices are good >13:59 < wltjr> mgorny: why do you have to? maybe someone else coudl >14:00 < wltjr> mgorny: gentoo does not get better by letting less in, it gets better by letting more in and improving qa >14:00 < mgorny> but i already cleaned up after more than one developers because nobody else was around >14:00 < mgorny> i already more than once had to defer my important work because someone else broke something >14:00 < wltjr> mgorny: yes and one way to prevent that is make sure someone else is around :) >14:00 < wltjr> mgorny: if you had more help that might not have been the issue >14:00 < wltjr> mgorny: if there were more devs to do the work.... >14:00 < mgorny> but someone else has to be capable of working in team and fixing stuff >14:01 < wltjr> mgorny: again that was NEVER my problem >14:01 < wltjr> mgorny: my gentoo issues were never around work, you could say it was social things with the foundation, that was sort work just not technical >14:02 < wltjr> mgorny: for years I have tried to just get back to the technical aspects, technical contributions, but EVERY TIME the process stalls due to social bs that comes from devrel/comrel etc, just like today, jlec could have done quiz review, and would have seen my knowledge first hand, but instead chose a different route >14:02 < mgorny> you say that but why should i trust you? >14:02 < mgorny> you are already arguing for 2 days >14:02 < wltjr> mgorny: go do the resesarch it all public >14:03 < wltjr> mgorny: arguing for 2 days? who did I argue with yesterda? >14:03 < mgorny> why should i do the research? it's you wanting to join >14:03 < mgorny> just hypothetically >14:03 < wltjr> mgorny: you say you don't trust me, I am not saying take my word, go read list archives, go look at the facts yourself, VERY few did >14:03 < mgorny> i have pointed out how you can contribute to gain my trust >14:03 < wltjr> mgorny: just as I have to learn for the quizzes others can use google to learn about me >14:04 < mgorny> but instead, you say that you won't contribute this way because you want the full commit access instead >14:04 < wltjr> mgorny: I don't need YOUR trust, I won't be working with you after, and you cannot provide me help on what I will be working on >14:04 < mgorny> and you should know how difficult it is to work sane with cvs >14:04 < wltjr> mgorny: yes I worked with the tree for years, if you learn about me, I was known for zero day commits >14:04 < mgorny> if we had git, sure, but with cvs it's me potentially wasting time trying to figure out what happened >14:04 < mgorny> and you now disrespect me, which is not helpful either >14:04 < wltjr> I had beta version of things in tree tested before the release, way ahead of other distros, gentoo lead then >14:05 < mgorny> you discourage me from contributing to gentoo this way >14:05 < mgorny> this is bad for teamwork >14:05 < wltjr> mgorny: how did I disrepesct you? >14:05 < mgorny> even if i'm not on your team, i'm a developer and my contributions are meaningful to users >14:05 < mgorny> <wltjr> mgorny: I don't need YOUR trust, I won't be working with you after [...] >14:05 < wltjr> mgorny: saying I don't need your trust is not disrespectul, I bet there are developers who don't trust you >14:05 < mgorny> but anyway, that's pure hypothesis >14:06 < mgorny> i'm telling you how others are going to feel about you >14:06 < wltjr> mgorny: by default you are not supposed to modify a package someone else maintains even if you are a dev, and that is partialy around trust >14:06 < wltjr> mgorny: most have no issue with me, and even less who work with me, anyone who does not and just talks to me, likely has issue ;) >14:06 < wltjr> mgorny: you haven't seen my stuff because you do not work on java stuff >14:07 < wltjr> mgorny: but again if you want to see, go look at orace-javamail, they ingored my changes for eclipse-ecj and the ant version >14:07 < wltjr> had things gone differnetly today you could look at tomcat 8 in tree >14:07 < mgorny> i'm not arguing that you don't >14:07 < mgorny> i'm just saying that you should respect others and their time >14:07 < wltjr> mgorny: but the fact that I maintained many package for years should be enough >14:08 < mgorny> recruiters are the people who have time to help you but you have to comply to the rules >14:08 < wltjr> mgorny: I do, and have, again go look at backlog I was brief I wasnt' ranting, up until jlec brought up social bs, if he kept it business it would be now :) >14:08 < mgorny> sure, they can do some ammendments to make you avoid repeating the same tasks fifth time >14:08 < wltjr> mgorny: dude what rules? >14:08 < wltjr> mgorny: yesterday it was get quizzes and a mentor, I have that today >14:08 < mgorny> but you have to be fair to others >14:08 < wltjr> then it became show me your work, I provided information >14:08 < mgorny> so what's the problem? >14:09 < wltjr> then it became well I talked to others and now concerned about social aspects >14:09 < mgorny> you should discuss it with your mentor >14:09 < wltjr> mgorny: go read the backlog >14:09 < mgorny> either he mentors you, or not >14:09 < wltjr> mgorny: fordfrog is my mentor, but what is he to say about that? >14:09 < mgorny> he is to vouch for you >14:09 < wltjr> mgorny: mentor for what? that is a technical thing, to make sure I don't make mistakes or break stuff >14:09 < wltjr> mgorny: vouch for contributions technically not social behavior >14:10 < wltjr> mgorny: again the social bs came from jlec we should not have gone down this path >14:10 < wltjr> I doubt its normal part of recruting to go talk to others about a persons past etc, rather than to do what is stated and do quiz review etc >14:10 < mgorny> you know, you are talkin about your past all the time ;P >14:11 < wltjr> mgorny: they create the situation in which they some what fear >14:11 < wltjr> mgorny: I did not bring it up, again look at a backlog >14:11 < mgorny> so don't make reasons for them to distrust you >14:11 < wltjr> mgorny: jlec was concerned about the social stuff from the past... I did not bring that up, others keep bring it up, and they only bring up the negative from the past which is MINOR compared to the positive which is overlooked, so I mention the positive >14:11 < wltjr> mgorny: they create it >14:11 < mgorny> just be nice and don't get angry >14:12 < wltjr> mgorny: I am not wanted, so they create a situation that lets them justify their stance >14:12 < mgorny> prove them wrong >14:12 < mgorny> they have no reason not to recruit you if you comply to all their fancy wannabies >14:12 < wltjr> mgorny: who 2 or 3 people? they really have the right to hold the community back? >14:12 < wltjr> mgorny: I did, I cannot satisfy some concern about social bs >14:12 < mgorny> as in 'social bs' can't really make them not recruit you >14:12 < wltjr> mgorny: that is NOT a gentoo policy by any means >14:13 < wltjr> mgorny: well why I am not doing quiz review? >14:13 < wltjr> :) >14:13 < mgorny> maybe they wait till you calm down ;P >14:13 < mgorny> i'm sorry but i have a QA team meeting right now, and need to focus on that >14:13 < wltjr> mgorny: if you look at my comments, I was trying to set a time with jlec for a review... >14:13 < wltjr> mgorny: I am not upset never have been or not, people take things out of context, I am hardly raging >14:14 < wltjr> mgorny: its not going to happen, I have been here many times before, I think this is my 5th attempt at returning >14:15 < mgorny> did previous attempts end up with some people doubting your social? >14:16 < wltjr> mgorny: they always end up in the same place, social bs tanks the process >14:17 < wltjr> mgorny: others bring up problems from the past assume they are going to happen again, start focusing on how I act vs technical contributions, they create the situation >14:17 < wltjr> mgorny: put in other words they do things to press my buttons on purpose, if they did not do that stuff, and did what they would for ANYONE else, then things would be different, but I keep getting special treatment, in a VERY BAD way.... >14:18 < wltjr> seriously no one would tolerate what I have been going through, walk in my shoes and see how you would react >14:18 < mgorny> i believe that >14:19 < mgorny> and if you can be quite civil nevertheless, i don't see a problem >14:19 < wltjr> mgorny: there never has been other than the ones others create >14:19 < wltjr> that goes back to the -nfp and how this all started years ago >14:20 < wltjr> fact is most care less about the foundation so few had any clue, they just saw the aftermath and assumed, oh this guy must be toxic, though anyone who looked at any details realized very quickly that was not the case >14:20 < wltjr> mgorny: what I am going through now is not a documented part of the recruitment policy, so why am I stalled her, who knows :) >14:21 < wltjr> mgorny: last time I mentioned some of this on a bug, aside from being told it was the wrong place, many were quite concerned and wanted to me to take it to -project >14:21 < wltjr> I could have been posting on list and bitching for years, I just stayed silent, I am really not trying to involve others or waste anyones time on stupid matters I am stuck dealing with >14:22 < wltjr> mgorny: but I should have known better about the recruting process, even with new people on staff, things still seem the same, and seems like there is no where for me to go from here, so just did the quizzes again for nothing.... >14:22 < wltjr> I have done the quizzes like 4 times now i think... :) >14:23 < wltjr> not to mention what happene to infra seems some bad stuff happened there, gentoo infra used to be 2nd most influencial and powerful after the council, but now is mia >--- Log closed Wed Feb 18 17:51:54 2015 >--- Log opened Wed Feb 18 17:52:12 2015 >17:52 -!- Irssi: #gentoo-comrel: Total of 31 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 24 normal] >17:52 -!- Irssi: Join to #gentoo-comrel was synced in 38 secs >19:19 < creffett|irssi> wow, I missed some fun today it seems >19:20 <@dilfridge> I unsubscribed the gentoo folders from my imap client at work >19:21 < creffett|irssi> dilfridge: sounds very reasonable to me >19:24 <@dilfridge> yes but then you get home, find 5x comrel, 18x bugzilla-perl, and an unnatural number in -dev and -project. >19:25 < creffett|irssi> dilfridge: ehh, just reply to all of the comrel with "you're a terrible person and should be ashamed of yourself" >19:25 < creffett|irssi> and make generous use of ignore thread in -dev and -proj ;) >19:26 <@dilfridge> heh >19:27 * creffett|irssi should get around to leaving QA one of these days >23:51 < mgorny> creffett|irssi: unnatural number? negative or floating point? >--- Log closed Thu Feb 19 00:00:11 2015
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