irc log of #gentoo-comrel

2015-02-17.log (text/x-log), 43.31 KB, created by William L. Thomson Jr. on 2015-02-22 17:15:38 UTC

--- Log opened Tue Feb 17 13:40:25 2015
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13:42 < wltjr> greetings, need to see about finding a recruiter and becoming a developer again for my 4th or 5th attempt at returning since I left years ago... also need to see about recruiting gnu_andrew ASAP!!! he has maintained icedtea (open source Java) on gentoo for years, which is a considerable effort and contribution, really need to get him direct CVS commit access ASAP
13:43 < mgorny> wltjr: do you have the quizzes ready? ;P
13:43 < wltjr> I assume the process has not changed and is the same for new developers and returning ones alike, which really should have a different process for returning
13:44 < wltjr> mgorny: I can that is not as much of an issue, providing review is done in a timely manner, last time I spent 2 hours in quiz review and did not make it half way through the 1st one as a returning developer...
13:44 < wltjr> mgorny: I still have my original quizzes, the ones I have done a few years ago, and I can do them again....
13:44 < mgorny> not sure if the questions didn't change ;P
13:45 < mgorny> but don't worry, asking mostly out of curiosity, i have no recruiting powers
13:45 < mgorny> i just help people who are tired of that and commit their pull requests to cvs
13:45 < wltjr> mgorny: some have, mostly new ones and variations, I can see about completing the quiz if the rest can be processed in a timely manner, I know like gnu_andrew will be short on time, he works for redhat
13:46 < wltjr> proxy maintaining stuff is NOT an option wastes time, I have a growing overlay of contributions gentoo could benefit from, and no one has maintained packages I did since I left in 2008...
13:46 < wltjr> minor things like ipv6 pathced qmail, tomcat 8, etc :)
13:46 < mgorny> wltjr: well, with the git mirror proxy maintaining is not that bad anymore
13:46 < mgorny> less than 48 hours to get your commit in cvs
13:47 < wltjr> gentoo needs more contributing to tree, not proxy maintaining or sunrise... I hate sunrise...
13:47 < mgorny> less than 12 hours if you're lucky ;)
13:47 < wltjr> mgorny: does it require someone elses time to commit?
13:47 < mgorny> sunrise is crap by design
13:47 < wltjr> why have 2 do the job of 1? :)
13:47 < mgorny> wltjr: yes but got it down to the bare minimum. script handles moving stuff to cvs and other crap
13:47 < wltjr> gentoo has become to burocratic and has hurt itself on recruiting, get more people committing, and do qa and other things
13:47 < mgorny> developer only confirms and commits
13:48 < mgorny> exactly
13:48 < wltjr> mgorny: still requires anothers time, not needed if they have direct commit access
13:48 < mgorny> but recruiters don't want to hear that
13:48 < mgorny> they're afraid people will get in and break their precious gentoo
13:48 < wltjr> no one wants to hear what I have to say, but they end up doing it anyway :)
13:48 < wltjr> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135927
13:48 < wltjr> my last comments were about getting rid of devrel and its GONE :)
13:49 < wltjr> mgorny: yes, or be like me, stir the pot, make things happen and get gentoo moving
13:49 < wltjr> I helped get the foundation legal, bylaws, and other things and had idiots not annoyed me I would have done much more
13:49 < mgorny> i see
13:49 < wltjr> oddly enough those in recruiting who prevented my return ended up inolved in the foudnation after telling me if I return to stay away from the foundation :)
13:50 < mgorny> well, i would probably retired a few times already
13:50 < wltjr> mgorny: I have had a long time issue with those destroying gentoo over the past many years
13:50 < mgorny> but the recruitment is so irritating i preferred to keep commit access
13:50 < wltjr> mgorny: smart, mistake I should not have made, then again its shown how bad gentoo is for RETURNING DEVELOPERS
13:50 < wltjr> its one thing that its difficult to get new devleopers, much less get previous ones to return....
13:51 < wltjr> all the recruting effort and staff still has not produced a retuning developer process, they are treated like someone new to gentoo...
13:52 < wltjr> mgorny: I did resigned from the foundation, and then because of devrel, I resigned entirely, and devrel made it such that I could not return, though that entity is gone, some are still around
13:52 < wltjr> anyway as I wanted to years ago, I have things to contribute, LOTS of work to do be done, gentoo java is in a HORRIBLE state, tons of outdated packages, many things needing to be updated, much less other things
13:53 < wltjr> sad when you can get things newer on other distros like debian than gentoo, why when there are people willing to contribute to gentoo, but others are not helping them to do such
13:53 < wltjr> anyway regardless of me, gnu_andrew needs to be recruited ASAP!!!!
13:54 < mgorny> yes, java will certainly use some help
13:54 < wltjr> then again if I return, I might join recruting and actually see about recruting people and growing gentoo....
13:54 < mgorny> i think we have a steady rotation there
13:54 < wltjr> mgorny: lots of areas need help, gentoo is the only linux distro with a qmail that does not support IPv6, patches have been out of years
13:55 < wltjr> mgorny: the number of developers has not kept up with the number of packages, and gentoo has not grown over the years, the number of devleopers remains flat
13:55 < wltjr> mgorny: I have seen more come and go after showing interest, than stayed and became developers and that is sad....
13:55 < mgorny> wltjr: qmail is pretty much dead, i think
13:56 < mgorny> and i think it is solely maitnained by vapier
13:58 < Philantrop> wltjr: You really still have a warped view of the world: Returning devs are just welcomed back if they haven't been away for more than 6 months. If it's been longer then, yes, you won't get any "extras". You're basically new then because god knows what quality your work might be of after such a long time. DevRel, btw, is still around. It was just merged with UserRel and renamed to ComRel. As you might know I'm not exactly a fan of
13:58 < wltjr> vapier maintains allot, but doesn't look like he has done much, no present maintainer not surprising
13:58 < Philantrop> Gentoo and most of its procedures but the recruiting stuff actually makes a lot of sense quality-wise - despite what mgorny claims.
13:59 < wltjr> Philantrop: my ebuilds are better than some in tree and I caught errors on some what were in qa for stablization...
13:59 < mgorny> Philantrop: sure
13:59 < Philantrop> wltjr: Then you shouldn't have any problems at all completing the quizzes, eh?
13:59 < wltjr> Philantrop: I proxied for a while with patrick and my ebuild quality is as it always has been 
13:59 < wltjr> Philantrop: that was NEVER the issue, it was getting them reviewed
14:00 < wltjr> Philantrop: the one time I did get someone to review they wasted my time with bs, 2 hours and not even half way through the 1st quiz... that is UNACCEPTABLE
14:00 < wltjr> I did not spend 2hours with both quizzes with kloeri years ago
14:00 < mgorny> wltjr: you're good with EAPI 5 magics? :)
14:00 < Philantrop> wltjr: Well, no doubt Gentoo has issues with contributions. There we agree. Here's what we do at Exherbo: https://galileo.mailstation.de/gerrit/#/q/status:open+-branch:cross,n,z
14:00 < wltjr> Philantrop: I am sure many like vapier, robbat2, patrick, and many others can vouch for my work :)
14:01 < mgorny> wltjr: i'm afraid that won't matter much these days
14:01 < mgorny> vapier is known for poor quality
14:01 < wltjr> Philantrop: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=540404
14:01 < mgorny> patrick became a terrible troll
14:01 < wltjr> vapier maintains quite allot and not sure about his poor quality
14:01 < mgorny> 'maintains' is not a very precise
14:02 < mgorny> holds control over, yes
14:02 < wltjr> mgorny: I have met vapier and others at LWE, he works on major stuff nfs-utils, gcc, toolchain, etc
14:02 < mgorny> but his actions are far from desirable
14:02 < mgorny> like ignoring bugreports for months
14:02 < mgorny> and then asking for something stupid someone will certainly not have 1 year later
14:02 < wltjr> mgorny: my first experience with vapier at LWE, a guy ina  kilt from open solaris who was working on enlightenment came to the gentoo booth wanting to know who spanky was
14:02 < wltjr> this guy had MAD respect for vapier/spankys contributions to enlightenment
14:03 < mgorny> maybe, i don't know his contribs there
14:03 < wltjr> shortly after I had to do a 64bit build from 32bit, I used vapiers crossdev work, etc
14:03 < mgorny> i know how many times he caused tree-wide breakage of stable tree because of laziness lately
14:03 < wltjr> mgorny: go look man he is MAJOR, gentoo would be fubared without vapier for real, there is few I respect more than him
14:03 < mgorny> maybe
14:03 < wltjr> mgorny: tree wide breakage used to be the norm for unstable when I first joined
14:04 < mgorny> i mean stable tree
14:04 < wltjr> I would go into -dev and complian, and would be told thats why its unstable
14:04 < wltjr> mgorny: well stable on gentoo has always been an oxymorron as I find most stuff in stable to be the opposite
14:04 < wltjr> I just had to update to unstable perl packages and core because it was blowing up assp
14:05 < wltjr> Philantrop: exherbo should not exist, if I ever get back with gentoo, I want to see exherbo and gentoo re-unite for real
14:05 < wltjr> my old recruiter is exherbo kloeri 
14:05 < wltjr> same with funtoo, gentoo has fractured itself for no reason
14:05 < Philantrop> wltjr: There will be no such thing. We're not a fork.
14:06 < mgorny> funtoo won't merge with gentoo, ever
14:06 < wltjr> Philantrop: I mean more in the people behind exherbo
14:06 < mgorny> well, at least unless gentoo decides that drobbins should decide on everything
14:06 < Philantrop> wltjr: We're actually all very happy *not* having to deal with Gentoo anymore.
14:06 < wltjr> mgorny: I would not say that, daniel was forced to go that route, gentoo has become nothing like what he intended, I tried to make the foundation stronger per his original vision
14:06 < mgorny> probably similar thing would go for exherbo
14:07 < wltjr> Philantrop: put another way, ok with a my distro that no one knows about... seriously if I mention exherbo to anyone they will have no clue
14:07 < wltjr> Philantrop: do you have java on exherbo? I doubt you have the iceadtea contributions
14:08 < Philantrop> wltjr: That's fine by us. :-) Point them to DistroWatch. :-)
14:08 < wltjr> which I know many do not realize how CRUCIAL gentoo is to FOSS Java for real
14:08 < Philantrop> wltjr: Of course. I'm packaging IcedTea and OpenJDK myself.
14:08 < mgorny> gentoo is crucial to a lot of stuff but that doesn't really matter
14:08 < wltjr> Philantrop: your working on gnu_andrews work then :)
14:08 < Philantrop> wltjr: We have IcedTea 6 & 7, OpenJDK8 and OpenJDK 9.
14:08 < mgorny> what happens under the hood is important only to few people
14:08 < Philantrop> wltjr: Yes, I know him.
14:09 < wltjr> no not like it is to foss java, gnu_andrew is using gentoo to catch and fix things in iceadtea
14:09 < wltjr> understand gnu_andrew is a RedHat employee, paid to work on icedtea, but he contributed and worked on icedtea on gentoo long before that :)
14:10 < wltjr> Philantrop: in the corp Linux word in the US you few will consider running Gentoo, none would run exherbo....
14:11 < wltjr> Philantrop: and you can say exerhbo is not a fork, but its more like a fork than it's own thing, it SHARES allot in common
14:12 < wltjr> Philantrop: but I do like the exherbo expects users to be developers that is more how gentoo used to be and needs to return to that
14:15 < mgorny> wltjr: not sure about expecting but gentoo would certainly use being more helpful to contributions
14:15 < mgorny> but that brings the story of git
14:15 < wltjr> I don't want to get into the git vs cvs vs svn etc debate, I care less I just want more contributing to gentoo, gentoo needs to make it easier for people to become developers
14:16 < wltjr> the community needs to encourage such, and be ok with people learning and making mistakes, anytime i screwed up I would hear from mr_bones or others
14:18 < mgorny> well, when i read what you say here i feel like you're talking about some ancient days
14:18 <@jlec> wltjr: get your quizzes ready and be prepared with the new eclasses. Returning devs are normally quite quick to setup
14:18 < mgorny> these days i am often angry at people like vapier or mr_bones
14:18 <@jlec> wltjr: we have free capabilities right now, so it just depends on you
14:19 < mgorny> not sure if they changed, didn't adapt or if i'm just weird
14:19 < wltjr> jlec: ok I will get on that ASAP, I also requested gnu_andrew to do the quizzes as well, not sure if he has, almost more concerned with getting him on board before myself, and then many others after me :)
14:20 < wltjr> mgorny: their work load has been tremendous over the years, surprised not burned out
14:20 <@jlec> wltjr: and get yourself a mentor. We (recruiters) cannot do this job as well due to limited manpower
14:21 < wltjr> mgorny: http://euscan.gentooexperimental.org/maintainers/ sort that by packages
14:21 < mgorny> wltjr: maintainers aren't as meaningful as they used to be
14:22 < wltjr> jlec: mentor? funny :) what do they need to or be? I am sure I can find several, but hardly need mentoring
14:22 < wltjr> mgorny: that to me is scary, that you have so few people responsible for so many packages
14:22 <@jlec> wltjr: you need someone who signs responsible for your commits in the beginning
14:22 < mgorny> there are a few really active devs who do most of the work
14:22 < mgorny> like patrick doing most of QA work
14:22 < mgorny> i'm doing a few big projects
14:23 < mgorny> and i'm really sad that only a few maintainers help
14:23 < mgorny> like me and axs, we alone had to fix all the games
14:23 < mgorny> because games team is pretty much defunct
14:23 < wltjr> jlec: that could be anyone who proxied my stuff over the years...
14:23 < wltjr> FYI I am also about 80% of the way through java-config in C, ported to C from python... I plan to port other gentoo stuff in python to C as well....
14:24 < wltjr> discovered several bugs no one has filed bug reports for in the python version of java-config 
14:24 < wltjr> patrick was proxying for me for years, even put me down as maintainer on like firebird I think...
14:25 < wltjr> I was the maintainer, but I did not want to commit to being the proxy maintainer, bugs were being assigned to me and I was not even a dev at the time... um...
14:26 < wltjr> jlec: I will get the quizzes done asap and get back to you, I will get a mentor as well, if no one on java team, will see about contacting pactrick or others
14:26 <@jlec> wltjr: fine.
14:30 < mgorny> wltjr: does gnu_andrew have any specific interests besides icedtea?
14:30 < wltjr> no, he will likley not do anything beyond iceadtea, not even java packages etc
14:30 < wltjr> the sole purpose of gnu_andrew becoming a gentoo dev is direct commits for icedtea rather than him working in an overlay and requiring a dev to proxy his work to tree
14:31 < mgorny> wltjr: i think our current process is a waste of time for him
14:31 < mgorny> he certainly has better use of his time ;)
14:33 < wltjr> that has caused some delays
14:33 < wltjr> this is also what i hate about gentoo check this out
14:33 < wltjr> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=517738
14:33 < mgorny> wltjr: delays in moving his stuff from overlay?
14:33 < wltjr> I was contributing a updated ebuild, I had improved the ebuild, a bad version of it was being stabilized
14:34 < wltjr> specifically this comment https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=517738#c3
14:34 < wltjr> I am being told no need for || die with rm, I agree
14:34 < wltjr> however go look at the ebuild in tree....
14:34 < wltjr> that stuff is still there, it was commited by the dev who was nit picking on my contribution
14:34 < wltjr> ingnored more work, left ebuild at EAPI=4 vs 5, did not do the changes they told me, and of course no mention of my bug or contributions in changelog
14:35 < wltjr> s/ignored more/ignored my
14:35 < wltjr> mgorny: yes, because java team is some what fractured, and can't go to tree till a dev has time to move from overlay to tree
14:36 < mgorny> well, if you need, i can help moving stuff when it doesn't need much review
14:36 < mgorny> though i prefer pull requests on the git mirror
14:36 < mgorny> he would have to rebase against current ebuild in tree
14:36 < mgorny> but it would be trivial for me to merge new versions
14:37 < wltjr> mgorny: well idea is get him commit access and let him work directly
14:37 < mgorny> you know the procedures right now
14:37 < wltjr> mgorny: he catches and fixes things no need for a delay in that, like libgif broke something he fixed
14:37 < mgorny> you following gentoo-project?
14:38 < wltjr> mgorny: no I have stayed away, been turned off, anytime I try to return I run into BS that demotivates me
14:38 < mgorny> :)
14:38 < wltjr> like people nit picking on my ebuilds and the ones committed in tree and stablized being worse....
14:38 < mgorny> well, i lately started a thread about making recruitment less time-consuming
14:38 < wltjr> I cannot stand that hypocracy
14:38 < mgorny> guess what the response was...
14:38 < wltjr> that way I see it, someone contributes and ebuild, I review, improve, and mention to them the improvements for them to learn
14:39 < wltjr> I would NOT EVER point out the changes for them to make, just to waste my time and theirs to nit pick...
14:39 < wltjr> mgorny: I can imagine....
14:39 < wltjr> mgorny: again they have purposely kept me out for fear of change ;)
14:39 < mgorny> it got absurd to the point of that we need to ask people what purpose of grep/sed/whatever is because someone once got recruited and made mistake because of that
14:40 < wltjr> making mistakes will happen, gentoo should be more tolerant of such and have a process to catch and fix stuff rather than try to make everyone perfect
14:40 < mgorny> yes
14:40 < wltjr> anyway work to do
14:40 < wltjr> mgorny: nice chatting with you
14:40 < mgorny> and at the same time anyone who completely lacks talent for this but is persistent enough can get in
14:40 < mgorny> i'm still finding year-old complete screwups by idella4
14:41 < mgorny> like ebuilds that could never work
14:41 < wltjr> jlec: I will get on the quizzes mentioned to gnu_andrew as well, I will be in touch soon once I have quizzes done and a mentor
14:41 < mgorny> proving he even didn't test the final version before committing
14:41 < wltjr> well some might be best to contribute in other ways not always technical, we had a gentoo news letter long ago
14:41 < wltjr> I actually wanted to createa  budget for that in the foundation and have some paid employees on core stuff for gentoo like infra....
14:42 < wltjr> I also made sure to REMOVE provisions in the by laws that allowed trustees to pay themselves, paying myself was never an interest of mine, paying others for work others do not want to volunteer for, or is crucial like infra, should be paid IMHO
14:43 < wltjr> I have my own business I make $ my own way not via Gentoo, but nothing wrong witha  Non Profit having paid employees along with lots of volunteers, think RedCross :)
14:44 < wltjr> but that is not my goal or desire atm, just to get some aspects of gentoo back on track, java stuff up to date, rebuild java team, monthly meetings, etc, get other devs on board, and then help other aspects of gentoo
14:44 < wltjr> though I think given the recession some people might have liked to get paid to work on gentoo stuff, and some might have needed that
14:44 < mgorny> well, i was thinking of something a bit simpler
14:44 < wltjr> better use of the $ than the $10k+ that went missing and is sitll unaccounted for no one cared about then or now...
14:44 < mgorny> just encouraging users to review work done by developers
14:45 < mgorny> and deciding who to donate to
14:45 < mgorny> rather than some abstract foundation
14:45 < wltjr> still cannot believe that happened and not sure if the treasurer stole the $ or what, but $10k+ went missing between statements
14:45 < wltjr> mgorny: what is the point of donanting money when there is no plan for how to spend or use that money to better things?
14:45 < mgorny> wltjr: want to talk about $? i recently mailed trustees why there are no financial summaries for last 3 years
14:45 < wltjr> mgorny: gentoo has no use for $, it does little with it :)
14:45 < mgorny> no reply...
14:46 < mgorny> wltjr: that's i say, donate money to developers
14:46 < mgorny> i can buy bread with it
14:46 < wltjr> mgorny: dont get me started man, blame others for the foundation falling apart, I resurrected that, but people would not leave me be so I resigned, and it has been in decline since
14:46 < mgorny> foundation will just keep it
14:46 < wltjr> mgorny: the foundation needs to be organized to spend it, and also to get more...
14:46 < mgorny> as i see it, putting $ in foundation is like asking someone to find a way to steal it
14:46 < mgorny> or sue it
14:46 < wltjr> I suggested we sell advertising space, and pay for hosting, vs giving it away and getting free hosting
14:47 < wltjr> mgorny: not really, I was on it then, I was NOT ok with the $10k that went missing and I would have held someone responsible, that was unacceptable
14:48 < wltjr> mgorny: I got gentoo a bank account again, that was 100% me, I had to shop banks for months, because of oversea foudnation members, most banks required someone to walk into a location to sign papers etc
14:48 < wltjr> I played a major role in legal aspects of gentoo, legal reinstatement of foudation, redid by laws got them approved and adopted, got a bank account, and had plans for much more
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16:59 < wltjr> jlec: looks like fordfrog will be my mentor, still confirming that depending on what all it commits them to doing/being, I will work on my quizzes today
17:10 < mgorny> wltjr: back when was the missing money incident?
17:10 < mgorny> i mean, is it in the papers and everything?
17:11 < wltjr> mgorny: it was when i was first elected as trustee, I wasnt to pleased with the treasurer, I am not accusing him of stealing, but I do hold him responsible for accounting for where the money went
17:11 < wltjr> mgorny: if you look at the finacials then there is a period where $10k goes missing
17:12 < mgorny> and the foundation as a non-profit didn't have big trouble for that?
17:13 < wltjr> mgorny: 2008 or 2008 i believe
17:13 < mgorny> hard choice
17:13 < wltjr> mgorny: its not a 501c that takes 5yrs
17:13 < wltjr> sorry 2009
17:14 < mgorny> well, i'm completely unaware of money affairs in the US
17:14 < wltjr> I will have to look to see the specifics its not reflected in the online minor financial disclosure
17:15 < wltjr> mgorny: to become a 501c charity in the US you have a 5yr probationary period were you have to keep things in order, tax filings ,etc, once you pass probation your either granted 501c status or denied
17:15 < mgorny> though it all looks like sweeping under the carpet for me
17:15 < wltjr> freebsd was able to pull that off
17:15 < wltjr> mgorny: it was that way, I recall it was when we got funds from the old bank account and deposited them into new one with capital one
17:16 < wltjr> mgorny: it was when Joshua Jackson (tsunam) was the treasurer, one of his first reports on financils
17:18 < mgorny> i hope things are better these days
17:18 < wltjr> mgorny: 2008-07-13.log:17:24 <@wltjr> musikc: we got the foundation with no bank account, a revoked charter, and last financial report was from 05
17:19 < wltjr> mgorny: looks like financials from 05+ were produced after the fact not sure when as I do not believe they were around then per my comment in #gentoo-trustees during some meeting
17:19 < mgorny> wltjr: i hope you don't end up saying the same thing in the next few weeks
17:19 < wltjr> mgorny: what that $ went missing? I doubt I could given I haven't followed things in a while, I doubt it could happen again without it showing up
17:19 < wltjr> mgorny: this was a unique period where funds went from one account to another, I can't recall the details of that, how we got funds into the capital one account
17:19 < mgorny> well, i mean there are no new reports again
17:20 < wltjr> mgorny: I am trying to find my comments about the missing money :)
17:20 < wltjr> mgorny: sure, so once again chance for $ to go missing
17:20 < wltjr> other peoples donated money... worse than stealing money normally... like stealing from the penny jar or something
17:21 < mgorny> or, at least they're not where they used to be
17:21 < wltjr> but I don't think it was nefarious just incompetency 
17:21 < mgorny> well, i feel it's terribly wrong
17:22 < mgorny> i mean, when things like that happen i feel we should temporarily shut the donations down until we get things back in order
17:22 < wltjr> mgorny: given that a recruiter who I spent years working with on java, prevented my return, made comments to me about not getting involved with foundation and then became a trustee because of others lack of interest, says it all right there :)
17:22 < wltjr> mgorny: dude there is no organization to gentoo... who will shut it down? who makes that call?
17:22 < wltjr> council only oversees technical things...
17:22 < mgorny> i guess trustees can only do that
17:23 < wltjr> gentoo was meant to have a strong foundation and the council lead the technical aspects but not the social, financial and the rest
17:24 < mgorny> well, nice talking to you but it's getting late and 5 AM wakeup tomorrow, again :)
17:25 < mgorny> so good night and good luck on rejoining
17:31 < wltjr> mgorny: I will have to research that some other time, but I am not sure it matters even if I can confirm it happened, there is no chance of recovering that $, best case would be making sure it did not happen again but might have already....
17:32 < wltjr> none the less, gentoo could be getting interest on the $ not used, doubt trustees are looking into any sort of interest bearing account
17:48 < wltjr> https://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/finances/2010q3.xml 
17:48 < wltjr> Corrections to balance bank account as balance has been off since records have been kept.$8,980.16
17:48 < wltjr> wtf....
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20:12 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: it's still amusing to hear that
20:12 < xiaomiao> Eeeeeeets naught a fooooooork
20:12 < xiaomiao> ah, kloeri was such a master troll
20:13 < Philantrop> xiaomiao: It simply isn't. Most of it was written from scratch. And while I rarely agree with him, mgorny has a point: [17.02.15 20:01:27] <mgorny> patrick became a terrible troll
20:13 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: *shrug* you're a terrible troll
20:13 < xiaomiao> but we still tolerate you
20:14 < Philantrop> xiaomiao: Have you been looking into the mirror for too long again?
20:14 < wltjr> I was gunna ask why in here if affiliate with exherbo kinda anti gentoo recruiting no? :)
20:15 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: unlikely. why do you ask?
20:15 < xiaomiao> wltjr: because it's fun to insult people that usually don''t fight back
20:16 < xiaomiao> wltjr: and/or because it's a fork like funtoo ;)
20:16  * xiaomiao remembers the eclass whining quite well
20:17 < wltjr> xiaomiao: what happens when they cross ones who do? :)
20:17 < Philantrop> xiaomiao: Firstly, I don't see me insulting anyone here. Secondly, what eclass whining? We, Exherbo, never cared about what you did with your eclasses.
20:17 < xiaomiao> wltjr: they claim it's unfair attacks on them
20:17 < xiaomiao> it's a strategy perfected by 'feminists'
20:17 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: hahahahahahaha
20:17 < xiaomiao> the reality distortion field is still strong
20:18 < wltjr> almost done with quizzes on last question of end of quiz, searching devmanual for gcc info, haven't worked with anything requing newer gcc
20:18 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: but, since you'll just deny anything anyway there's no use to 'discuss' with you
20:18 < Philantrop> xiaomiao: Maybe you should back your eclass claim with facts?
20:18 < wltjr> USE="-discussion" emerge 
20:18 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: like the ~1.5 YEARS where any eclass change caused exherbo devs to complain?
20:19 < xiaomiao> but, since that didn't happen it didn't happen, so it couldn't have happened even if it did happen
20:19 < Philantrop> xiaomiao: Where?! And who? I certainly didn't care.
20:19 < xiaomiao> Agnus Dei.
20:20 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: as I said, since it can't have happened it didn't happen
20:20 < xiaomiao> even if it did
20:20 < Philantrop> xiaomiao: Should you be referring to Ciaran, that wasn't because of Exherbo but because - for reasons I'll never understand - he still somewhat cares about Gentoo.
20:20 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: no, not only him
20:21 < xiaomiao> and if that's 'care' ... sigh
20:21 < Philantrop> xiaomiao: Well, if it did happen, you can surely point me to the place it happened and who did.
20:21 < wltjr> I disliked seeing ciaran fractured from gentoo, controversial and I was hardly a fan of his per se, still skills that could benefit gentoo...
20:21 < xiaomiao> wltjr: no.
20:21 < xiaomiao> wltjr: we also surgically removed Arfrever, because 'skills' are not the only thing that matters
20:21 < xiaomiao> especially when they are wrong
20:21 < wltjr> well I agree, but magic happens when you bring may together that otherwise would not be...
20:21 < xiaomiao> (e.g. Arfrever breaking python multiple times, even after having been warned)
20:22 < xiaomiao> breaking python is a little bit, like, worst-case nuclear scenario
20:22 < wltjr> well I take a different stance
20:22 < xiaomiao> Philantrop: btw, can you remind ciaran that he still owes me a proof that complete induction isn't? :)
20:22 < xiaomiao> wltjr: well, then you may get cut out too (again)
20:22 < wltjr> if gentoo did not over abuse python, then it would not be an issue, thus me being a java guy wanting to see java deps not depend on python, I know portage and most stuff eselect etc will still be in python, but some day java-config will be in C  and I will move on to other things :)
20:23 < xiaomiao> maybe
20:23 < wltjr> xiaomiao: I NEVER was CUT OUT, I LEFT like everyone else...
20:23 < xiaomiao> but then still breaking core packages for fun, and then not fixing, well ...
20:23 < wltjr> xiaomiao: really bad to drive people like me away and others for real, it hurt the foundation, the tree, gentoo as a whole
20:23 < xiaomiao> wltjr: aye, but you understand what I tried to express
20:23 < Philantrop> wltjr: Careful now. He'll be spreading lies about you now. :-)
20:23 < wltjr> xiaomiao: well I do not agree with that, break what ever, but you BETTER fix what you broke
20:24 < xiaomiao> wltjr: yes, and if you refuse to do that you are not worth the trouble
20:24 < xiaomiao> then you get prevented from breaking things again
20:24 < wltjr> xiaomiao: gentoo used to have better qa, anytime I did minor breakage mr_bones was on my ass quick style, only time i heard from him or saw him, did recently again in #gentoo-java per others borkage, but he is not as active as he once was sadly, but understandably
20:25 < xiaomiao> wltjr: AutoRepoman has mostly replaced him
20:25 < wltjr> xiaomiao: sure, though I would not be one to say sever from project, more ban from touching packages, though really not means for such
20:25 < xiaomiao> ah, the fun of small shellscripts
20:25 < xiaomiao> wltjr: well, in the arfie case, we DID warn him multiple times, and he's just ... not responding in a human way
20:25 < wltjr> xiaomiao: but does that get in touch with the dev on a personal level and make them feel guilty? :)
20:25 < xiaomiao> perma-banning him with no chance of return was the only way to survive
20:26 < xiaomiao> (so now funtoo is his playground ... oh my ...)
20:26 < wltjr> xiaomiao: well no clue about the person or situation you refer to, I just recall way to many leaving gentoo, and it didn't benefit from less drama really, drama is somewhat a good thing, sign of progress
20:27 < xiaomiao> wltjr: yeah, well, with skilled people like kloeri in devrel ...
20:27 < wltjr> I just wonder if contributions to funtoo and exherbo went into gentoo, how much better would gentoo be? I know I have lots I could have contributed over the years, gentoo has progressed but could it have progressed more, surely :)
20:27 < xiaomiao> wltjr: well, the progress overlay actively has negative value
20:27 < wltjr> xiaomiao: he was NO where near as bad as the idiots who took over and drove me away and kept me out for 7 years or so no, longer than I was ever a dev....
20:27 < xiaomiao> you're basically asking "if gentoo were using RHEL as upstream" ;)
20:27 < wltjr> despite my involvement and major contributions to the foundation etc
20:28 < xiaomiao> wltjr: he retired about 20 devs, then self-retired, while accusing people of conspiracies
20:28 < xiaomiao> it was quite amazing as a drama
20:28 < wltjr> xiaomiao: not sure what you mean with the rhel comment
20:28 < xiaomiao> wltjr: if gentoo were rebased on RHEL, wouldn't that save us much time?
20:29 < xiaomiao> then we could do even more ... oh wait... NO IT WOULDN'T
20:29 < wltjr> xiaomiao: I recall kloeri he was my recruiter and he went off on me right before his depature, though we have interacted since and it was just bad timing
20:29 < wltjr> xiaomiao: i would never suggest such, but gentoo does not have the means to work with vendors such as rhel, something I wanted to see the foundation facilitate 
20:30 < wltjr> xiaomiao: gentoo should be leading in many ways but sadly without organization and leadership is heavily overlooked
20:30 < xiaomiao> wltjr: the way RH patches gcc would be very sad for gentoo
20:30 < wltjr> not to mention is damn near impossible for most corporations to adopt and use
20:30 < xiaomiao> or the way they managed to break bash
20:30 < xiaomiao> etc.
20:30 < wltjr> xiaomiao: I am not a RHEL fan by any means, I could be making easily 6 figures with them... a local contact is a pretty high up rep with RH
20:31 < wltjr> I left rh years ago pre fedora for gentoo, try doing java on anything but Gentoo back in the day, ridiculous....
20:31 < xiaomiao> I babysit RHEL/CentOS machines, they are best treated as buggy LFS quickstart stages
20:31 < xiaomiao> also no upgrade path, random patching, it's ... amateur level
20:31 < wltjr> this is how I express binary distros, for foreigners who haven't been sorry google it
20:32 < wltjr> a binary distro is like walking into Burger King, telling anyone behind the counter, make a burger your way, with some 4k+ options or more as to how many different ways to make a burger at burger king, that is what you get with binary distros
20:32 < wltjr> how the hell do they know how I like my burger or what I need etc :)
20:33 < xiaomiao> and then you get a sorry excuse of a burger
20:33 < wltjr> xiaomiao: I wanted gentoo to be powerful, like technological RedCross, puting out a OS backed by a NPO you could pay for support etc, but not for profit just to further the OS, etc
20:33 < xiaomiao> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eREiQhBDIk such a great movie :)
20:34 < wltjr> I am not sure I have the motivation to ever make such efforts again I was pretty turned off foundation things, but once I am a dev again, after getting things I need current, and java team going again, then I might look to other areas
20:34 < wltjr> really would like to see much of gentoo python stuff ported to C and/or C++ if C is to much
20:34 < wltjr> I mostly code in java but would never want most of gentoo stuff written in java, thus same goes for python, ruby, etc
20:35 < xiaomiao> ported to C++ ? that'd be even worse
20:35 < wltjr> damn spam proxy I love and depend on for over a decade assp is in perl, need to port that sucker to C or something as well, maybe Java though because it has lots of dependencies, perl modules, not sure about replicating all that in C, though perl is likely already using C libraries
20:36 < wltjr> xiaomiao: well some prefer C++ because C can be cumbersome, and that comes from some I heavily respect and work on embeded archs, andrew henderson, pretty impressive dude used to be in my area, now teaches in ny
20:36 < wltjr> https://icculus.org/~hendersa/resume/resume.html
20:37 < wltjr> he recommend C++ to me over C a few times, sometimes if C isnt' done right it can use more electricity and such on embeded systems with memory allocation calls etc
20:38 < wltjr> C vs C++ debates used to rage at Cisco back in the day as well, and I know Firebird my fav RDBMS was ported from C to C++ though the API is still in C and C++ comes from third party, IBPP
20:38 < xiaomiao> wltjr: and C++ suffers from awesome defects that make it impossible to use in system packages
20:38 < wltjr> xiaomiao: I feel you, I am not a C++ fan really, though could be the complexity, I dislike the operator overloading, some of the STL stuff etc
20:38 < xiaomiao> I dislike ABI breakage
20:38 < wltjr> xiaomiao: i do like the class aspect, the function overloading, though that forces you to wrap stuff in extern C for dso because of mangling
20:39 < wltjr> xiaomiao: I haven't experience with that, and I would highly agree there
20:39 < wltjr> my interest in java-config port to C is longevity without breakage, so if C++ would cause brakeage I feel better about my choice :)
20:40 < wltjr> xiaomiao: fyi a former gentoo dev brad house is working on a library he hopes to release this year, I equate it to like boost or glib for C, common string, net, encryption, and other stuff, not sure if it could qualify for inclusion in like glibc or core stuff, but does plan to release under MIT license
20:40 < wltjr> used allot at his company, mainstreetsoftworks/monetra
20:41 < wltjr> someone was working on a libbash in C I thought for gentoo, not sure what happened there
20:41 < xiaomiao> never worked
20:41 < wltjr> oh damn betelgeuse is leading that now funny... :)
20:42 < xiaomiao> bash is like perl - the only proper documentation of behaviour is the implementation
20:42 < wltjr> xiaomiao: sure but at times overuse of bash can be inefficient, I have a small C program I used to have in bash using grep and stuff, it was very slow and used lots of resources, it screams in C and uses nothing
20:43 < wltjr> xiaomiao: I am about to have to do the same with another small bash script, nothing advanced just hits allot of text files/emails, so takes time I don't have :)
20:43 < wltjr> same goes for portage, I keep upgrading systems, more memory faster cpus, bus, etc but over the years portage seems to be just as slow as it always been .... just watch the little thing spin...
20:44 < wltjr> it did scream at Linux World one year, when they were making that graphical installer or what ever, IBM had a fridge they allocated a section to a gentoo install that took a few hours I think like 4 for full gnome or kde compiled :)
20:47 < xiaomiao> I mostly agree - bash is not the smartest choice
20:48 < wltjr> I think the use of bash and python was good to prototype things, but given that things are to last and continue on, long term efficiency of execution, and maintainence should be factored in
20:48 < wltjr> xiaomiao: assp is a great example, I think perl was great to use at first, but as the project took off and grew, it should have been ported before it got to big now its a pretty big task, as most things in gentoo would be to port as well now
20:49 < wltjr> porting emerge to C would be allot of work, had that been done before say EAPI=1 or back in the day, adding new features would be easier than trying to port all the changes over the years
20:50 < xiaomiao> first part would be un-refactoring it into less java-ish code
20:50 < xiaomiao> why does everything need to have a 6-deep inheritance chain for a single item?
20:50 < wltjr> but at some point bullet has to be bitten, thus I am starting with java-config, maybe can inspire others to port other things to C, and if not I will see if I can slowly port other things to C, and command at a time port the python stuff to C :)
20:51 < wltjr> xiaomiao: un-factoring what?
20:51 < xiaomiao> wltjr: portage got refactored into a complexified mess, removing all that middleware that doesn't do anything should be a good help
20:52 < wltjr> xiaomiao: no clue, I know java-config in python was written rather interesting, being mostly a java guy I can't say its java ish really, I have carried some stuff over in C and mixed in my own java-ish stuff, but that is more in like function naming sytnax, not into the all lower case stuff in C
20:53 < wltjr> I like functions/methods to have lower case start and upper after, but that is moot stuff really, getValue() vs get_value()
20:59 < wltjr> damn question 21 has me some what stumped I have it partially answered but not seeing where in the devmanual its covered, all over the dependencies page and some others, not sure my mentor will know its a newer question and they work on java mostly :)
21:06 < wltjr> have to revisit tomorrow, seems to be in part depend, but thinking its more involving tc- since it mentions a  check, and how to avoid it etc
23:47 < mgorny> wltjr: library for everything in C? that's something *new* indeed. i always thought 10 different standards of clutter weren't enough
23:48 < wltjr> mgorny: the idea is to stop having to build the hammer and shape your own lumber from logs before building the house
23:48 < wltjr> mgorny: more like how you can just build new strings in C++ and things are easier, less minor details, something like that, I have no idea I have yet to see the $/code so I cannot say if it really is good or not
23:49 < wltjr> however I know his credit card processing software has been amazing since day 1, he is a good C coder, so should be interesting
23:49 < wltjr> his company has done well, though he left gentoo long ago and I am not sure will ever revist, I have talked to him about that, he is the one who turned me onto gentoo
23:50 < wltjr> I only came across him because he bought me from redhat, I was a redhat customer of CCVS, and at one LWE they sold their customer base to mainstreetsoftworks and CCVS was no more
23:50 < wltjr> ran his cc software for over a decade, rock solid
23:50 < mgorny> i don't say it's not
23:50 < mgorny> but i doubt there's really a point in having yet another big library for C
23:50 < mgorny> C++ is almost 20 years old
23:51 < mgorny> and people are still reinventing it, poorly
23:51 < mgorny> glib, libmowgli, systemd (yeah, systemd has its own static runtime)...
23:52 < mgorny> full-crap-ahead talloc/tevent/twhatever
23:52 < mgorny> to the point where awesome reusable utility library ends up cluttering systems because it's used by its author only
23:53 < mgorny> a lot of libs with the same purpose, ~ same functions but some people prefer this API, some prefer that
23:53 < mgorny> and as i said, most of it is done in C++ better anyway
23:53 < mgorny> like objects
--- Log closed Wed Feb 18 00:03:54 2015