Reproducible: Always Steps to Reproduce: 1.Gentoo Linux 2004.3 x86: Handbook (& both CD's). 2. Follow the instructions "like a zombie". 3. Actual Results: Porbably get very confused and not have a working system! Comment made as explicitly request feedback - I hope this is it. Expected Results: After a lot of playing around - I got there - as you can see. Specific details of problems encountered and fix used along with if successful or not. Page 51 mirrorselect Stated as "optional", but do not warn that MUST "emerge mirrorselect" to do it later on the "real" system. Page 59 Default "Manual Configuration" I do not QUITE agree with this point of view: My first aim is to get a working system AND THEN try learning how to do things. If I had followed this route, I 1) would not have a bootable system and 2) would have no idea how to get back to the point where I could try again. Also it is very likely that I would not 1) know what the cause of the problem is and 2) be able to talk to anyone about it as I would not have a usable system !!! I suggest an extra piece of direction to DEFAULT: Genkernel for "absolute" beginners, otherwise MUCH Better to "do your own". This is the way I did it and it worked 1) very quickly and 2) complete success (except next point). I am not making this remark facetiously or stupidly. This is the THIRD ATTEMPT i have had at installing Gentoo Linux! The other 2 were complete disasters! Page 64 Code Listsing 17. After running "genkernel all" or as an additon to the script: PLEASE PLEASE do a "cp -a /usr/src/linux/.config /boot/config-<kernel-release> ! This is needed for 2 reasons. 1) You have to be able to run "oldconfig" and that is HARD if you do not happen to have it around. 2) This tells you all the things that got thrown in - Common sense sais adjust exactly 1 item in a new version of the kernel - boot it and IFF it works do it all again untill IMMENSE GLOW OF PRIDE you have done your very own first kernel. This is an iterative approach based on other peoples knowledge - not my complete lack of knowledge. Page 65 EXTREME HAZARD TO YOUR HEALTH - DECIDE TO GICE UP AND GO SOMEWHWERE ELSE !!! "Installing seperate kernel modules" MUST MUST MUST get the user to check IFF he/she actually needs tyo go and get any !!! Getting the wrong ones - BECAUSE you do NOT KNOW - causes your system NOT to work. This is immensely frustrating because you READ the WARNING - FOLLOWED the ACTIONS and now you are inexplicably DEAD!!! I would wish to see 1) a general list of pre-supplied modules and 2) what you have to do FIND out what is really there. Pleas NOTE that module names eg 78xxx are exceptionally confusing in this environment eg Adaptec 29160N SCSI (uw, etc) controller - sounds like it don't you agree? Page 77 "emerge dhcpd" TYPO - it should be "dhcpcd". Page 79/82 my note sais "VGA or what?" I just got completely lost on setting up the frame buffer stuff and still have not cracked this one! I experience 2 problems: 1) Does my (gen-) kernel use -tng style or not? (IT DOES) and 2) what am I really supposed to be setting up, etc. This is not overly interesting as, at most, it only screws the "pretty screen" on boot. It does make a PROBLEM for the real NEWBIE because your system will not boot, but complain about wrong parameter values. Should say somewhere 'hit SPACE and continue" along with fix-it. ============================================================= That is my set of DOC problems whilst doing the initial install. Please accept my unbounded thanks for this fantastic system. Now follows some "User experience", which I sincerely hope will help you to help the newbie to get up and running with at least a "usable desktop" - after that he/she can go off and do their very own complaing ... Page 89 BEFORE "Installing KDE" I would heartilly suggest advising the user of doing an "emerge" of the following: gentoolkit esearch genlop ufed sys-apps/texinfo (Really sounds like the "info" system ???) I got this mostly (as well as my first copy) from Linux Format magazine. They also mention Remerge, which sounds good, bit I can not find it - yet! Page 89 SERIOUS HEALTH RISK ... !!! After doing an "emerge --usepkg kde", you should advise the user to: x11config - to set up the graphical environment startx - test X11 (manual) start desktop rc-update add xdm default - Auto start the desktop, iff desired AND ... !!! emerge --usepkg <your choosen browser> END-OF-STORY As the user can now use his DeskTop environment, Browse to Gentoo.Org and make a whole lot of noise --- maybe! My choice was X11.org, Xfce and dillo - absolutely fabulous. Personally, I would advise emerge'ing x11org before doing KDE, or whatever as the user will always be dependant on this and it allows TESTing BEFORE the next big chunk of software ----, but I would not want to limit choice so I am not overly sure of this. =========================================================== That is it folks, except to say THANK YOU once again and I am off to find Remerge or is it remerge and build my very own SUPER GLOW of PRIDE (I hope) kernel.
Forgot some "minor" points: mirrorselect, when I tried it, did I beleive a "deep" style check. I did not redirect output as I wanted to know what it would do and probably just hand copy the results. In the emerge lists at the end, please add mirrorselect as a candidate, cf: the first problem. Linux Format recommend using "make && make modules install && make install" for 2004.2 for 2.6 kernel as a replacement for code listing 12 along with drop 13 and 14. I was not brave enough to try this one, but it is probably correct. Sorry - Never could remember a thing. Regards, Pim
Regarding "mirrorselect": once you've ran it, you generally don't have to rerun it (the changes are permanent). Manual vs Default for genkernel: it's a choice, we have the manual way as "default" because it makes it easier to tweak. But other than that, we don't say we recommend it or anything. Just a choice. kernel config saving: doesn't genkernel do this automatically? Anyway, oldconfig's not that recommended (there's another bug on this, see #77313) Installing additional modules not for your system: why would you want to install modules for hardware you don't have? defeats the purpose of it really... Telling how to verify what's in your system is beyond the scope of the installation instructions though. "dhcpd" - where do you find this one? Perhaps this is in the instructions on the LiveCD, but you should use the ones that are online if possible, they're maintained and more accurate. We can't update the docs on the CDs anymore framebuffer: other bugs, such as #76117 interesting tools for desktop: that's a personal opinion, really. there are quite a few threads in our forums discussing this, and I've never seen a conclusion :) And it's "make modules_install"... the "make install" won't work because it will try to change your bootloader configuration which isn't installed at that point of the installation yet.
I am not trying to annoy, but it has taken me 3 attempts to get this up and running. The reason I got this far this time is, apart from improved knowledge (Suse) and lack of entirely mis-leading instructions (Linux Format - otherwise a most ecellent publication), was the vast improvement in this DOC. I am trying to polish this improvement and, where possible, make it "bomb proof". Please accept these comments in this light. mirrorselect ------------- The changes are only permanent IFF you re-direct STDOUT as instructed - I did not!! The point is: the step is marked "OPTIONAL", but IFF you try to do it AFTER boot - you CAN NOT! You MUST emerge ... to be able to use it. My personal belief is that you should add some additional text and/or either here at the emerge kde bit at the end. If this is not done many a user will loose the plot. Having said that, this is an incredibly minor point for the user as he can still keep on rolling rolling... Genkernel/Manual - Default ------------------------------- What I was trying to state is: For the absolute newbie it is more important to get ANY system up and running rather than make a super spiff incredibly optimised one that will never boot. If the user gets that far, they can play to their hearts content. From this point of view their really should be 2 paths through the DOC, but a small NB-style note would probably more than suffice. Something like
I am not trying to annoy, but it has taken me 3 attempts to get this up and running. The reason I got this far this time is, apart from improved knowledge (Suse) and lack of entirely mis-leading instructions (Linux Format - otherwise a most ecellent publication), was the vast improvement in this DOC. I am trying to polish this improvement and, where possible, make it "bomb proof". Please accept these comments in this light. mirrorselect ------------- The changes are only permanent IFF you re-direct STDOUT as instructed - I did not!! The point is: the step is marked "OPTIONAL", but IFF you try to do it AFTER boot - you CAN NOT! You MUST emerge ... to be able to use it. My personal belief is that you should add some additional text and/or either here at the emerge kde bit at the end. If this is not done many a user will loose the plot. Having said that, this is an incredibly minor point for the user as he can still keep on rolling rolling... Genkernel/Manual - Default ------------------------------- What I was trying to state is: For the absolute newbie it is more important to get ANY system up and running rather than make a super spiff incredibly optimised one that will never boot. If the user gets that far, they can play to their hearts content. From this point of view their really should be 2 paths through the DOC, but a small NB-style note would probably more than suffice. Something like Ïf you really are new to all this ... please use genkernel just this once and then come back and do it properly on your real system." -'ish. Undoubtedly my DOC style stinks - please do not tel me - but I am sure you can find an adequate form of words to get the messgae across and cover all bases. Aside - I did it I did I did One super silly home-made Kernel up and running. The reason I did not get this far on Red Hat v6.0, was that I did not swith on experimental - well would you on your first blind attempt to do a SYSGEN? Needless to say it was a monumental flop. Saving Kernel Config ------------------------ NO - IT DOES NOT - WHY DO YOU THINK I REPORTED IT ? Personally, I would think that it should, but cf: your comment on make module_install ! I only threw in "oldconfig" as an example - Thank you for making me aware that there are problems - but it was only an aside to begin with - it IS NOT in the instructions - ie: "out of scope". For the newbie, this could appear a minor point, but just re-read my comment on RHL6 - and I am not a newbie - in case you have not guessed by now. Additional modules --------------------- I was not planning on committing virtual Hari-kari, but I did write a "Home page" for a very interesting Japanese lady cf: http://www.matsuri.nl/ and the myriad beneath. There are 2 points: 1. Module name CAN be/ARE confusing, especially to the newbie. IE: some kind of list somewhere of current COMMON adapter(s) vis-a-vis module name vis-a-vis need to fetch Y/N is, in my own personal view a must. Where it should go is another matter. 2. You 'WARN" of the need to FETCH some modules, but DO NOT mention that there are already some available (in the base). This MIS-DIRECTS a newbie into thinking ow I have to go and get all the modules I need for my hardware!". This is wrong - as you obviously know - the newbie does not know - that is the point. I actually got into trouble, not with aic7xxx/29160N - it is on another machine, with ATI 128 Rage Pro Turbo (of unkown storage size - the joys of second-hand junk - at least it was cheap). Firstly, I only knew the ATI bit, secondly I saw ATI ... (Radeon in fact) and went for it - I had to give it the old chop-chop. If I or a real 100% newbie had got this one drastically wrong, the poor old bloke would be left in utter bewilderment in front of a DEAD screen. I think these really are important points - If and how you solve them is as "they" say an entirelly other matter. At least I am trying to make you aware of the implications of the DOC in what was its current state. I am trying ... Typo: DHCPcD ----------------- I did get from the Live CD - I suspect many people will have done this. I bet you have only heard about this one a mere Tera-Tera-Tera times so far. Don't worry there only so many Billion people in the world. I reported it, briefly, just in case it "had not come to your (Gentoo's) attention". It would in fact be crucial for a newbie to be able to get DHCP usage on his network - so it is actually kind of important to get this spelling correct. Framebuffer ------------- I believe you and anyway I was just born this way - Probably had something to do with mother always bouncing me on my head - save you saying it! Tools - emerge ----------------- No - That is not what I was/am saying !!! Please read page 89-90 in conjunction with page 108 and page 107 !!! (I believe That section 2 is now a seperate book.) I am not suggesting someones favourite pick list. I am suggesting that you should mention as a suggestion that there are some very important (emerge) sytem tools that should be considered by the newie (and perhaps others). Gentoolkit in my view must be mentioned because you specifically suggest an installation method - GRP install - that effectively requires its use. The others that I mentioned are contenders for the list at your discretion. make_install -------------- Told you I lack courage --- absolutely convinced that this is the wise-man's choice !!! Any idea where I can buy some of this here wisdom stuf ??? Footnote ---------- Just to make the point: This is now Gentoo 2.6.10-r5 Home grown variey. I get to SUPER GLOW with incredible puffed up pride - well at least 'till I see your reply ... You specifically do not ment xorgconfig (or whatever) to set up X11 to use your particular flavout of adapter/monitor. This is crucial - It WILL NOT WORK unless you do this - NEWBIE's DO NOT KNOW this - I know 'cos that is what killed me the second time round. You do not mention "rc-update add xdm default" if the user, such as a newbie, would wish to auto-start his desktop - and I forgot to mention change the default run-level in /etc/inittab from 3 to 5 - well nobody's perfect ... Well, I have given it another shot - I put it in as "enhancement" because I reckon that is more or less what it is, but in this categuory it is much more "bug fix needed" in my estimation. I am really not requesting additional functionality - Just a little polish to make it more than shine - Just absolutely gleam and sparkle.
On mirrorselect: there are a few other bugs on mirrorselect too; we'll probably remove it alltogether from the instructions. On genkernel: there is another bugreport (or is it a thread on gentoo-doc, dunno) asking to make genkernel the default with some more feedback (such as using --menuconfig and such). So that'll happen too. On kernel modules: if we'd start listing "common" modules, there would be no end. And after all, using genkernel can obsolete the requirement of knowing what modules you need as it just compiles them all and let hotplug/coldplug sort them out. If there is a typo on the LiveCD docs, then we can still do nothing about it. On framebuffer: there is another bug on this elsewhere. You don't need gentoolkit to use GRP.
Please, use separate bugreports for each problem you face. Trying to follow a soup of feedback on a single bugreport is dangerous for both people's minds.
