Since more than a half year some users think they have to fight systemd in the user forums. Now they use some kind of guerilla warfare tactics: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7526190.html#7526190 --- The troll in question's favourite tactic here and on the mailing lists is called a "gish gallop". The way to win against this is not to not respond to those posts, but to not even bother reading them in the first place. The whole point is that they want you to become fatigued and frustrated reading walls of text, where concepts that could be expressed in half a dozen words are buried in entire paragraphs of circular logic, repetition and awkward literary contortions. Their goal is to attack you "between the lines" so that you can't easily stop them by pointing to any direct quote as wrongdoing. If you're feeling particularly black-hatty, doing the inverse of what you suggested — responding to their posts "directly" but not actually bothering to read them — is a highly effective counter-DoS using their own tactics. But don't do that in a salvageable thread, it annoys others. --- Maybe forum admins are part of the problem. (Not a joke for april the first) Reproducible: Always
Hi, not everyone of us is really active in the forums. Could you please point us to some example posts / threads? TIA, Andreas
@Andreas, you will get an impression in a way condensed way (5 pages) what the issue is in the forums if you read the PaulBredbury thread https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-985224.html where he claims it is more productive for him to contribute his systemd_without workarounds to a dedicated systemd distribution (archlinux). I showed here https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7525864.html#7525864 how TomWij is accused of being a liar with a wrongly shortened quote https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7525864.html#7525864 which he sadly didn't double check before I did. Despite TomWij being bullied forum admins went along with the herd: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7524954.html#7524954 https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7525242.html#7525242 https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7525324.html#7525324 The first link suggesting a pillory which I don't no for sure if it is a joke.
Another thread where another developer (ssuominen) presented himself as the messenger just to get shot from all sides. NeddySeagoon, a forum admin, wasn't ashamed to support the FUD here: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7510712.html#7510712
I'm opening this bug so the forum moderators can access it. (In reply to Ulenrich from comment #0) > Since more than a half year some users think they have to fight systemd in > the user forums. Now they use some kind of guerilla warfare tactics: > https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7526190.html#7526190 > --- > Maybe forum admins are part of the problem. > (Not a joke for april the first) Have you actually emailed the forum moderators team about this?
(In reply to Ulenrich from comment #0) > Since more than a half year some users think they have to fight systemd in > the user forums. Now they use some kind of guerilla warfare tactics: > https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7526190.html#7526190 Responding from a neutral point of view, highlighting most of the situation: On the forums, systemd has become a topic that is more based on emotions than that a reasonable neutral respectful discussion between everyone can be held. As a result of such emotions funding what is being discussed, some individuals regard other individuals to be pro-systemd or anti-systemd whereas one or both intend to be neutral, or up to the point that one is confused for the other. This goes even further to the point that stances of upstream and Gentoo are confused for one another; even further, statements by others are being bend to be pro-systemd on anti-systemd. That is regardless of the individuals involved. This situation is of concern recognizing that several such threads, as well as meta-threads about such threads, have been for months in the active topics list; going further than that, they are being linked to from external media as well as can come up in searches around the keywords "Gentoo" and "systemd". Unless explicitly requested, I won't speak of individuals; even given that some people took a step towards the boundaries, I think nobody intends to do as such. It's like coming home with food, starting to talk with your spouse about doing something for a relative; but getting the answer "sorry, I don't want to eat right now; that relative has just passed away". While you intended to do good by doing something; given the emotions involved, it feels more bad than good... (In reply to Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto from comment #4) > Have you actually emailed the forum moderators team about this? Several forum moderators are aware as they have been in the several threads; they are mostly taking a hands-off approach to this, I don't think they are necessarily part of the problem. Although, I think they are near a point that enough is enough; I am now avoiding such discussions per the situation above.
Oh please, TomWij "neutral"? You know full well that description is of you, and you know full well you've been politicking and pushing your agenda of shiny shiny on everyone, as well as driving people nuts across various media. By all means close this bug, but please don't expect us to buy the kool-aid of your reasonableness.
(In reply to Steve L from comment #6) > Oh please, TomWij "neutral"? Yes, in the most neutral way possible. > You know full well that description is of you, It is about the summary of this bug, note that "users" and "they" are plural. > and you know full well you've been politicking and pushing your agenda of > shiny shiny on everyone, as well as driving people nuts across various media. Eh, no, I have no shiny shiny. People drive themselves nuts trying to obtain it, labeling things as politicking and pushing; that demonstrates this situation. > By all means close this bug, but please don't expect us to buy the kool-aid > of your reasonableness. Sorry, that's not my call; why would I even expect such thing in this situation?
(In reply to Tom Wijsman (TomWij) from comment #7) > (In reply to Steve L from comment #6) > > Oh please, TomWij "neutral"? > > Yes, in the most neutral way possible. > > > You know full well that description is of you, > > It is about the summary of this bug, note that "users" and "they" are plural. > > > and you know full well you've been politicking and pushing your agenda of > > shiny shiny on everyone, as well as driving people nuts across various media. > > Eh, no, I have no shiny shiny. People drive themselves nuts trying to obtain > it, labeling things as politicking and pushing; that demonstrates this > situation. > > > By all means close this bug, but please don't expect us to buy the kool-aid > > of your reasonableness. > > Sorry, that's not my call; why would I even expect such thing in this > situation? This bug is not for arguing with each other, so please don't continue. -A
@Alec This exactly is what happens in the forum for months now. Nobody knows about this "shiny shiny agenda" these guys are accusing the developers showing up in the forums. It is so boring, disrespectful and disgusting. Forum admins are aware of it and I know of one who wants to do something about. Hopefully his actions soonishly invalidate this bug. I said to him don't be afraid to quickly intervene. I don't bother to get banned myself for a time being, if I were seen part of it. For the sake of the Gentoo user forums. If forum admins cannot handle this in a timely manner I would suggest to set the whole of the forums read only for a while until they managed what has to be done.
(In reply to Ulenrich from comment #9) > @Alec > This exactly is what happens in the forum for months now. Nobody knows about > this "shiny shiny agenda" these guys are accusing the developers showing up > in the forums. > > It is so boring, disrespectful and disgusting. Forum admins are aware of it > and I know of one who wants to do something about. Hopefully his actions > soonishly invalidate this bug. I said to him don't be afraid to quickly > intervene. I don't bother to get banned myself for a time being, if I were > seen part of it. For the sake of the Gentoo user forums. > > If forum admins cannot handle this in a timely manner I would suggest to set > the whole of the forums read only for a while until they managed what has to > be done. I spoke to the forum-mods on IRC and they seemed to be taking action. We mostly leave the forums up to the moderators to run. I told them to solicit assistance from comrel or infra if they need help. -A
this bug report becoming a warzone. And also close this one as not really a bug. Everyone fed up with "systemd-everywhere-threads". Suggestion to forum admins/mods. Create a subforum "Systemd" and merge all systemd-related topics there (good, bad, politics, critics). It's really painful to follow Gentoo threads filled with 100+ systemd topics in different sub-forums.
