Hi, I hit this case again and again. I seem to forget what is the difference between i686 and x86 stage files. Please place into /gentoo/releases/x86/2008.0/stages/ a README file containing description of each file there. ftpd(1) usually show contents of the README file to the user while entering the directory. It used to be a good habit years ago and somehow everybody expects one can always ask Google. :( And no, while having at the very moment only ftp client I can't even try to look into handbook.xml. Anyway, I don't think it is there. Definitely, it would be a good idea to document there what CPUs are required and for which the binaries are optimized. Thanks.
what would, in your opinion, such a README file look like? can you provide us with a first draft? thanks
The below is an example, the content might be totally wrong I am just guessing what could have happen. Basically, to show that one might care for which CPU is it optimized, where is won't run at all. I woudl propose to place the same file (a softlink) into the "stages", "livecd" and "installcd" directories. /gentoo/releases/x86/2008.0/stages/README: The binaries included here were produced using gcc-$version with the following $CFLAGS. They should perform best on SSE3 enabled processors (some newer Pentium IV, Core Duo, Core 2, Core Quad. AMD processors K6, K7, ...). The binaries will not run on Pentium II nor AMD K5. Due to the above CFLAGS the binaries do not utilize AMD MMX registers. /gentoo/releases/amd64/2008.0/stages/README: The binaries included here were produced using gcc-$version with the following $CFLAGS. They should perform best on AMD 64bit and Intel EM64T enabled processors. The binaries were not compiled with 32-bit backwards compatibility. Intel Itanium users should instead use binaries stored under "ia64" directory. /gentoo/releases/mips/2008.0/stages/README: The binaries included here were produced using gcc-$version with the following $CFLAGS. They should perform best on R10000 processors and won't run on R4000 processors (old SGI Indy machines).
As the stages have been renamed to i486 and i686 is there anything else the README files could be used for?
Sure, for example the CFLAGS used to compile them are missing. And that is important because I, as potential user installing Gentoo, would not probably try to find by google a man page to see what -march=i686 means. Sorry for my/theirs ignorance. I conclude from the filenames i486 and i686 that Gentoo does not provide 64 and 32 installations. The text Thilo asked me before was clear, just fill-in the variables and fix the sentences if the CFLAGS will say something different. ;-) Please.
(In reply to comment #4) > Sure, for example the CFLAGS used to compile them are missing. And that is > important because I, as potential user installing Gentoo, would not probably > try to find by google a man page to see what -march=i686 means. Sorry for > my/theirs ignorance. > > I conclude from the filenames i486 and i686 that Gentoo does not provide 64 and > 32 installations. The text Thilo asked me before was clear, just fill-in the > variables and fix the sentences if the CFLAGS will say something different. ;-) > Please. You're talking about the arch and not about CFLAGS. I notice that on the web page[1], on the mirrors [2] and in the handbook[3] we don't have any information for the user about what arch to choose. Should we "fix" this? [1] - http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml [2] - http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/ [3] - http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/
Each handbook lists which arches it covers. If you want to put READMEs on the servers, fine, but I don't plan to duplicate stuff.
infra doesn't get these questions and infra isn't responsible for any of the files. We just provide the...infra. Go figure :) As such, if the releng team gets these kinds of questions, feel free to make it easier on you. The mirroring process just slurps everything from posiedon, so ... go for it (if you want). As a side note, from comment #2, I wouldn't list "gcc-$version" in any README. Also, questionable for $CFLAGS, in my opinion.
Let's first deal with the choice/selection. Not all users are indeed aware of the architecture of their system, and we do not make it that easy for them to find out (it is listed on the second chapter, first section of each architecture handbook). Since we refer to the Handbook index page for all installation related questions (and handbook links), I would suggest updating the index page to inform the user about the architectures. Of course, for the majority of users, this means explaining the difference between x86 and x86_64 (amd64 - too bad we use the latter abbreviation). Could you agree with the following? http://dev.gentoo.org/~swift/docs/previews/handbook-index.xml @arch teams: can you validate the description of each of your architecture? You're free to remove yourself from Cc-list once approved ;-)
(In reply to comment #8) amd64: The description looks good. Please include AMD Phenom family on sample processor as well. Thank you
(In reply to comment #8) > Let's first deal with the choice/selection. Not all users are indeed aware of > the architecture of their system, and we do not make it that easy for them to > find out (it is listed on the second chapter, first section of each > architecture handbook). Since we refer to the Handbook index page for all > installation related questions (and handbook links), I would suggest updating > the index page to inform the user about the architectures. > > Of course, for the majority of users, this means explaining the difference > between x86 and x86_64 (amd64 - too bad we use the latter abbreviation). > > Could you agree with the following? > http://dev.gentoo.org/~swift/docs/previews/handbook-index.xml Good step ahead! Are you sure i686 media will run on 486 CPUs? That is where kernel .config and CFLAGS kick in and what should be documented in the README files so that poor user doesn't have to download ISO images and try one by one.
True. Now, we do build both (i486 and i686) but I don't know myself if I can just say "Gentoo offers builds for i486 (supports all families) and i686 (supports Pentium and higher or compatible)". I think I do, but I'm not sure if that clarifies it for people ;-)
AMD Phenom added to amd64.
(In reply to comment #11) > True. Now, we do build both (i486 and i686) but I don't know myself if I can > just say "Gentoo offers builds for i486 (supports all families) and i686 > (supports Pentium and higher or compatible)". > > I think I do, but I'm not sure if that clarifies it for people ;-) Sure it would be clear if you included CFLAGS and gcc compiler version. Then it is easy to read manpage for gcc to figure out what processors will it run on and for which it will be eventually optimized. But do not forget the /usr/src/linux-*/.config contents. The README should explicitly state for what CPUs was the kernel enabled. I think older 2.6 kernel supported i486 but that is not the case anylonger: linux-2.6.23/.config:CONFIG_X86_MINIMUM_CPU_FAMILY=4 linux-2.6.25.20/.config:CONFIG_X86_MINIMUM_CPU_FAMILY=6 linux-2.6.27.59/.config:CONFIG_X86_CPU=y linux-2.6.27.59/.config:CONFIG_X86_MINIMUM_CPU_FAMILY=4 linux-2.6.28.10/.config:CONFIG_X86_CPU=y linux-2.6.28.10/.config:CONFIG_X86_MINIMUM_CPU_FAMILY=4 linux-2.6.28.10/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_INTEL=y linux-2.6.28.10/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_CYRIX_32=y linux-2.6.28.10/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_AMD=y linux-2.6.28.10/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_CENTAUR_32=y linux-2.6.28.10/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_TRANSMETA_32=y linux-2.6.28.10/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_UMC_32=y linux-3.0.4/.config:CONFIG_X86_MINIMUM_CPU_FAMILY=5 linux-3.0.4/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_INTEL=y linux-3.0.4/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_CYRIX_32=y linux-3.0.4/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_AMD=y linux-3.0.4/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_CENTAUR=y linux-3.0.4/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_TRANSMETA_32=y linux-3.0.4/.config:CONFIG_CPU_SUP_UMC_32=y And here is listing of the x86-relevant options "make menuconfig" gives you once configuring a kernel (I cannot include the excellent help text from "menuconfig" for the 386 option explaining well the many "Pentium" versions although that would be very appropriate here and in the README file): Processor family 1. 386 (M386) 2. 486 (M486) 3. 586/K5/5x86/6x86/6x86MX (M586) 4. Pentium-Classic (M586TSC) 5. Pentium-MMX (M586MMX) 6. Pentium-Pro (M686) 7. Pentium-II/Celeron(pre-Coppermine) (MPENTIUMII) 8. Pentium-III/Celeron(Coppermine)/Pentium-III Xeon (MPENTIUMIII) 9. Pentium M (MPENTIUMM) 10. Core 2/newer Xeon (MCORE2) > 11. Pentium-4/Celeron(P4-based)/Pentium-4 M/older Xeon (MPENTIUM4) 12. K6/K6-II/K6-III (MK6) 13. Athlon/Duron/K7 (MK7) 14. Opteron/Athlon64/Hammer/K8 (MK8) 15. Crusoe (MCRUSOE) 16. Efficeon (MEFFICEON) 17. Winchip-C6 (MWINCHIPC6) 18. Winchip-2 (MWINCHIP2) 19. Winchip-2A/Winchip-3 (MWINCHIP3D) 20. GeodeGX1 (MGEODEGX1) 21. Geode GX/LX (MGEODE_LX) 22. CyrixIII/VIA-C3 (MCYRIXIII) 23. VIA C3-2 (Nehemiah) (MVIAC3_2) 24. VIA C7 (MVIAC7) choice[1-24]: Generic x86 support (X86_GENERIC) [N/y/?] ? Instead of just including optimizations for the selected x86 variant (e.g. PII, Crusoe or Athlon), include some more generic optimizations as well. This will make the kernel perform better on x86 CPUs other than that selected. This is really intended for distributors who need more generic optimizations. Generic x86 support (X86_GENERIC) [N/y/?] y And once you agree with this it is easiest to expose the .config of the utilized kernel directly on the FTP server along the .iso images.
(In reply to comment #11) > True. Now, we do build both (i486 and i686) but I don't know myself if I can > just say "Gentoo offers builds for i486 (supports all families) and i686 > (supports Pentium and higher or compatible)". > > I think I do, but I'm not sure if that clarifies it for people ;-) The kernel in the x86 livecd tries to support as much families as possible. The i486 stages are build for the i486 target and the i686 stages for the i686 target. Martin, sorry but no, we don't need nor should add info about CFLAGS and C compiler. Further, please don't forget the stages are based on the tree and this is a rolling distro, so things keep changing.
I agree with Jorge; when we would start using the CFLAGS and CHOST information to guide users in their quest to select the proper system, then we're on the wrong path. This information is for advanced users (even in the handbook we offer little focus on these variables) and would definitely scare away intermediate or even beginners. Although technically viable, I consider such approach less userfriendly.
I've committed the suggested changes to the handbook index page for starters. Updates can definitely still occur so feedback is always appreciated. But at least it gives some progress in this regard ;-)
Sven, thanks for the updates to the handbook. I think they should clear any doubts about architectures and what files should a user get for his hardware. The only thing I think is missing is for us to add to all dirs under releases[1] a link to the handbook page[2]. I'll talk to infra to see if we can have a single file and avoid having to keep multiple copies of the file all over the releases dirs. [1] - http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/ [2] - http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/
I'll see if I can update the catalyst scripts under releng/tools to create / link the listing file. Suggested listing file: Thank you for looking into Gentoo. If you need any help to determine the appropriate files for your hardware or to install Gentoo, please check http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/
(In reply to comment #18) > I'll see if I can update the catalyst scripts under releng/tools to create / > link the listing file. If you truly want one file (or one place to edit the file) then you will just place the file on the staging location "by hand". There is no other way to make it work as you asked.
OTOH, catalyst-auto could be the "one place" to store this text too, just hardlonks are out of the equation.
I've created a README file with the following content: If you need any help to determine the appropriate files for your hardware or to install Gentoo, please check the handbook - https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:Main_Page . For general information about Gentoo please check our website https://www.gentoo.org/ and for any documentation our wiki https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page . If I didn't make any mistakes, that file should show up under http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/$arch/autobuilds/ in a few hours.
The files are showing up in distfiles, so I'm finally closing this bug as resolved.
