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Bug 151118 - [tracker] new TLP for programming languages.
Summary: [tracker] new TLP for programming languages.
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Alias: None
Product: Gentoo Hosted Projects
Classification: Unclassified
Component: GNAP (show other bugs)
Hardware: All All
: High normal (vote)
Assignee: George Shapovalov (RETIRED)
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords: Tracker
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2006-10-13 01:33 UTC by George Shapovalov (RETIRED)
Modified: 2017-01-19 18:47 UTC (History)
7 users (show)

See Also:
Package list:
Runtime testing required: ---


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Description George Shapovalov (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-10-13 01:33:38 UTC
As was discussed on -dev list the list of TLPs is a mess and we can at least organize projects covering programming languages better. There were people interested and the objections can be served via opt-out of the project that do not want to move.

What should be done:

1. Decide on the name. My original version was "Gentoo Programming Resources" but please do suggest your variants if you wish. I don't really care as long as it makes sense.

2. Decide on whether we need members/lead(s) at the top level or this is going to be an empty shell. I am fine with the shell, but I can "lead" if it is so desired (or, quite willfully let somebody else lead ;)).

When these two issues are decided I'll create a directory programming/ under proj/en and produce some index.xml. After that

3a. I'll create bugs blocking this one - one per existing TLP that makes sense to move and which has not opted out by then, assigned to the lead of the corresponding project, CC its members. There the team can decide whether they want to move and then ask infra for a repocopy. Or simply make and commit a local copy (or ask me, I can do this as well).

3b. (in parallel) Teams interested in creating new (sub)projects can go ahead too at this point. 

I added to CC people who explicitly expressed interest in this TLP and/or want to create a subproject. I'll also announce this bug on -dev.

George
Comment 1 George Shapovalov (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-10-13 01:38:33 UTC
Oh, forgot the list.

Projects to be moved (tentative, may opt out):
Common Lisp
java
perl
php
python

New projects:
Ada
Haskell
Comment 2 Alexandre Buisse (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-10-13 03:10:10 UTC
Please add ml to the list of subprojects to be created.
I think a project lead is needed, if only to have someone to poke in case something needs to be changed.
Comment 3 Matthew Kennedy (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-10-13 19:51:43 UTC
I think it is unfortunate some will be "opting out".  Hopefully they're reconsider later.

For this project, I assume we're wanting to highlight the value Gentoo adds to each specific programming language.  I'm not completely familiar with Python in Gentoo, but examples of Gentoo added value include java-config, the common-lisp-controller, gpan etc. 

Maybe the TLP should have a description which mentions the projects falling under this TLP have Gentoo added value, each sub project provides documentation and resources for users and contributors. etc.

We should include something which explicitly notes that general programming issues are out of the scope of this project.  There will be those who are confused.

Is this what we're after?

1. For the name, I think we should go for something that is specific to the goals.  How about "Gentoo Specific Support for Programming Environments".  The working title in the Description was a little broad, I think.

2. A few people should be able to edit the TLP project xml in official capacity, I suppose they should be known as leads.

3a. Not sure about process you described there.  What is a "repocopy"?
Comment 4 George Shapovalov (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-10-14 03:19:10 UTC
(In reply to comment #3)
> I think it is unfortunate some will be "opting out".  Hopefully they're
> reconsider later.
So far there is only one. My hope is rather that we do not pick up any more, then may be even php reconsiders some time down the road..

> For this project, I assume we're wanting to highlight the value Gentoo adds to
> each specific programming language.  I'm not completely familiar with Python in
> Gentoo, but examples of Gentoo added value include java-config, the
> common-lisp-controller, gpan etc. 
Yes, and in the case of Ada this is eselect gnat module and overall libs setup, attuned for automatic handling in the case of multiple and slotted compilers.


> Maybe the TLP should have a description which mentions the projects falling
> under this TLP have Gentoo added value, each sub project provides documentation
> and resources for users and contributors. etc.
Yes, but this may be a bit more complex I think - there is organizational info and there are language resources. These are clearly separated, but there may be some common stuff as well. 

For example there are gpc (no project or even much besides the ebuild so far) and gdc (not yet in the tree, but many people are interested in it, according to the bug), which both are "yet another gcc frontend(s)". Both should be dealt with in a more unified way - we should perhaps have some common, toolchain-related eclass (last time I dealt with that, toolchain people did not want to "share" stuff, I was basically told - "copy the relevant pieces out") and then, possibly, some language specific eclass, if otherwise there is significant duplication (like there would be in gnat). At the project level we may have a TLP level "resource" - a description and whereabouts of a common eclass/eselect module or whatever else is there and then specific resources at the language levels..
I should mention though, that this is more of an abstract example at this point. gpc itself will likely never warrant a whole project for itself, and for gdc, first active contributors need to be persuaded to become, well, more active :) (right now it seems they are scared of doing it "the right way").

> We should include something which explicitly notes that general programming
> issues are out of the scope of this project.  There will be those who are
> confused.
Definitely. Looks like some were already, even though I tried to word my way out of it.

> 1. For the name, I think we should go for something that is specific to the
> goals.  How about "Gentoo Specific Support for Programming Environments".  The
> working title in the Description was a little broad, I think.
Yes, I agree on that, but this one I am afraid is too long :). I tried "Gentoo Programming Environments" or "Gentoo Support for Programming" but they seem awkward. In fact, the title is just that - a title, it does not have to be reflected in directory structure or in any way except in a single tag, so it is easy to change it later. I just want to start with something not totally assed.


> 2. A few people should be able to edit the TLP project xml in official
> capacity, I suppose they should be known as leads.
IIRC every (ebuild) dev has an access to the projects area. It is the docs themselves that are restricted. If this is not the case, please let me know (I might still have some "extra" access since being Translations Lead for Russian long time ago), but this is what I was told recently.

Then there is an issue of how many people we want at the top level - I mean listed specifically there. Looks like everybody (so far) agrees that we need at leas a lead and a co-lead (I think that is the requirement, but these policies were changing couple of times about a year ago, I need to recheck what it is at present). Do we need any "members" as well? Unless there will be some common resource (which it may, see above) or a specific role need (we are not doing any fancy website tuning here, so I am not sure what that could be) I don't think so.
Err, let me say this again: I think we need to start with simply lead and co-lead and add "members" as need arises (or rather people will add themselves when they need to add some top level resource).

> 3a. Not sure about process you described there.  What is a "repocopy"?
Sorry, this is "server side repository copy" in infra's slang - had to deal with this for sci reorg recently. Necessary if project wants to keep cvs history of old location (and, of course, only because we still use cvs). Clearly, that only applies to the already existing projects that are to be moved. New ones will simply cvs add new project dir/files as usual.

George
Comment 5 Duncan Coutts (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-10-14 04:03:27 UTC
(In reply to comment #4)

> > For this project, I assume we're wanting to highlight the value Gentoo adds to
> > each specific programming language.  I'm not completely familiar with Python in
> > Gentoo, but examples of Gentoo added value include java-config, the
> > common-lisp-controller, gpan etc. 
> Yes, and in the case of Ada this is eselect gnat module and overall libs setup,
> attuned for automatic handling in the case of multiple and slotted compilers.

One thing I'd like to get out of this, is to talk a little more and compare notes with other language teams on issues like this. In the Haskell team, we've been wondering for some time about how to handle multiple slotted Haskell compilers. It's something we'd very much like to do.

In particular if we were to find that some common portage changes would help for several prog lang teams then perhaps that's something the TLP could help coordinate and champion for us.
Comment 6 George Shapovalov (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-10-14 04:29:52 UTC
(In reply to comment #5)
> One thing I'd like to get out of this, is to talk a little more and compare
> notes with other language teams on issues like this. In the Haskell team, we've
> been wondering for some time about how to handle multiple slotted Haskell
> compilers. It's something we'd very much like to do.

Sure, but where have you been when I was trying to solicit any feedback on the proposed model on how to do this, in the corresponding -dev announcement? ;)
Well, Ok, going serious :). You can take a look at #111340 for a discussion that was taking place before/during implementation. Beware, it is very long. You can also take a look at the code - primarily gnat.eclass and eselect-gnat. There is also gnatbuild.eclas, but that one is mostly an adaptation of toolchain.eclass for gnat.

If you think we can share some common functionality from that gnat.eclass and the eselect module I will be very interested to discuss this further, but lets take this discussion out of this bug. I think the best way to go is to create a new bug on that matter, when you are ready. I don't think we should even make it blocking this one, this seems to be an independent issue.


> In particular if we were to find that some common portage changes would help
> for several prog lang teams then perhaps that's something the TLP could help
> coordinate and champion for us.
Definitely! That issue above seems to be just such a case. 

George

Comment 7 George Shapovalov (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-11-11 05:38:10 UTC
Long time, nothing's happening.

Since there were no further comments I just went ahead and added the TLP. You can see its page here:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/prog_lang/

I also added the link to metastructure/gentoo.xml, so it should be listed as a TLP, but that requires a push by the doc dev's. First I would like people to look at the page and comment whether it is Ok. It contains the description and I also spent a few paragraphs describing some "goals" that have already been voiced. Oh, and I created a subproject for Ada, so those who want to start on their subprojects can take a look and proceed.

I put myself as a lead, but if anybody else wants this position, I am ready to step down ;). Nonetheless I believe we also need a co-lead (although, as I can see there are multiple TLP's with only a lead listed, but then my impression is that many of those are a single-dev TLPs anyway), so it would be nice if somebody would step up to that. The "task" is to be a fall-back person for editing the index.xml file if changes become necessary and I am not responding for a while.

Please take a look and comment. I guess I'll wait another week or so and then start with pp. 3a/b in the "program" in the opening comment.

George
Comment 8 Alexandre Buisse (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-11-11 10:07:50 UTC
It looks quite good, the only remark that I can do about it is that it lacks an author tag and says "script generated". It's nice to know who wrote the page in order to give due credits and also to have someone to blame in case there is wrong information :)

I can step up as co-lead if you want. I'll also add a ml subproject pretty soon.


Thanks for the work you put in this.
Comment 9 George Shapovalov (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-11-11 11:48:40 UTC
(In reply to comment #8)
> It looks quite good, the only remark that I can do about it is that it lacks an
> author tag and says "script generated". 
Oh, there is one for the projects as well? I did not realize that - just copied some other index.xml and modified it :). Added now, along with a date tag.

>I can step up as co-lead if you want.
Sure, why not? Just add the corresponding tag to the file ;).

George
Comment 10 Alexandre Buisse (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2006-11-11 14:05:06 UTC
I've just added myself, then. I'll do the ml subproj as soon as I get a bit of free time. I also took the liberty to change the source a bit (like, remove indentation, since it's how guidexml files are supposed to be...).
Comment 11 Alex Xu (Hello71) 2015-06-11 00:52:04 UTC
I guess this is fixed.