User Relations requests a gentoo-dev-help mailing list. Users are currently confused a bit at the gentoo-dev mailing list and many think it is a developer only list. Many also find the gentoo-dev list to be a somewhat hostile place to ask development related questions. This new mailing list will be used to foster a friendly place for developers, power usrs, and potential developeres to interact.
Isn't that what -user is supposed to be? And if -dev is so hostile, shouldn't we be doing something to help fix that rather than try to avoid the direct problem by creating yet another list? I'm not in support of adding another list to avoid flaming problems on -dev. I'll let the other infra folks comment on it, but that's just my view on it.
Ok, that's perfectly fine. I'm not going to argue that point. -user is rather high traffic, for general user questions. -dev is, well, as many people experience when asking the sort of questions -dev-help would be used for 'not the right place', it's also as antarus pointed out a rather hostile place, I personally feel rather uncomfortable posting to the list, and it's no secret that the same goes for other. However, the -dev list is a resource managed by infra, so if you believe you should do something to fix it then I wish you luck with the task and I hope it works out for you. As for the -dev-help list, it was intended to be run in a similar fashion to the irc channel #gentoo-dev-help and cover a similar range of topics for those of our users who don't tend to frequent irc. But as you appear to have a problem with this I will inform my team that it's a no go from infra, and pass that on to those who suggested it.
I wouldn't say its a 'no go' entirely yet. I'm one person with one opinion :). I'd wait to hear from other infra folks for their input. The other people may think differently than me and we could go with it.
I'm going to have to go with Lance on this one. I read the "new mailing list dev-help" and to be honest, rolled my eyes. Do we really need ANOTHER mailing list to shield people from someone 'stating their point' in a not-sesame-street way? I vote no on the new mailing list. I hate to be the deal breaker, but tell the people who can't deal with -dev, to grow a thicker shell.
Ok, In that case, I will take this to be the official "OK" for -dev being 'the right place' and as such encourage people to ask the questions that currently they are being told it's not the right place for. Ya? That cool? I understood you correctly?
Who is saying what isn't proper for the list? Please cite some examples so I have a better understanding of the problem (gmane links are fine). I don't follow that list very carefully all the time.
(In reply to comment #6) > Who is saying what isn't proper for the list? Please cite some examples so I > have a better understanding of the problem (gmane links are fine). I don't > follow that list very carefully all the time. > Most recently.. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/37082/focus=37082 However I'm not averse to using the gentoo-dev ML for this purpose as long as it's stated to the developers as well as users as to what things are on topic. I hope to avoid things like the above. If a developer has issues with a question they can glance at the e-mail and toss it, as opposed to spending their time writing up a reply telling the user they suck. If we start having a bunch of complaints about the gentoo-dev ML or it otherwise doesn't work out for us I will reopen this. However for now I think we can give it a try.
I would like to re-open this request for a gentoo-dev-help mailing list. This is partially due to the recent traffic on -dev; it also has roots in keeping uninterested devs away from the requests of users interested in learning about Gentoo (think signal/noise ratio). Thanks, -Alec
ok, you have to pick some other name, without -help at the end, because the ML software picks up -help as a special command, so 'gentoo-dev-help' is seen as a help request for the gentoo-dev list. I actually made gentoo-dev-help and only ran into this while testing it :-(.
Let me guess ezmlm manages the list? :) Anyway, there are a number of people that find the dev list downright hostile and choose not to read it. If that is your goal, congratulations, you did it. If not then I don't see the problem of creating a lower traffic lower intensity list for people to participate in alleviating the need for flame suit or full battle gear.
> Let me guess ezmlm manages the list? :) No, mlmmj, but -help on the end is reasonably standard between list software these days. > Anyway, there are a number of people that find the dev list downright hostile > and choose not to read it. If that is your goal, congratulations, you did it. > If not then I don't see the problem of creating a lower traffic lower intensity > list for people to participate in alleviating the need for flame suit or full > battle gear. I'm assuming this is directed at me as the previous person to reply on this bug, and in that, it is completely uncalled for. I simply created the 'gentoo-dev-help' because I took over the lists admin now, and found that having -help on the end didn't work, thus asked for some other name to create the list with instead.
riverrat: please see my previous comment intended for you.
(In reply to comment #10) > Anyway, there are a number of people that find the dev list downright hostile > and choose not to read it. If that is your goal, congratulations, you did it. > If not then I don't see the problem of creating a lower traffic lower intensity > list for people to participate in alleviating the need for flame suit or full > battle gear. RiverRat, Usually I'd stay out of this, but here goes : Robin has been anything but helpful in the last x months/years he's been with us and I've specifically noticed how much he goes out of his way to make sure stuff is easy for others. I've never ever known or seen him turn down _anything_ that's doable and reasonable. Having said that, which part of his reply wasn't clear to you? I'll quote again : ok, you have to pick some other name, without -help at the end, because the ML software picks up -help as a special command, so 'gentoo-dev-help' is seen as a help request for the gentoo-dev list. I actually made gentoo-dev-help and only ran into this while testing it :-(. That means he created the list and ran into an issue that can't be fixed easily. Pick another name for the list and he'll create it. Simple. End of Story. I think your comments were uncalled for, please read carefully before replying. We're all here to help.
antarus: i'm still waiting on your for another name for the list, that doesn't end in -help since that's not technically possible.
See revised summary
antarus: revisiting this, from a related thing, how about gentoo-devhelp (note the lack of dash between dev and help).
Jedi is a registered trademark of Lucasfilm Entertainment Company LTD. :P pphhhtttbtbtbbttt </killjoy>
I'll still stick with the revised summary... -Alec
antarus: I will be creating this as gentoo-devhelp on July 27th if there is no response.
"a friendly place for developers, power usrs, and potential developeres to interact" is what i thought dev was supposed to be, at least according to this post[1] from the same thread mentioned above: "The list is intentionally not developer only. It is a place for the interaction between developers and advanced users on what happens in gentoo." I accept that #-dev-help is a great channel, but I would suggest that -project is also supposed to fulfil the purpose quoted (albeit not development-related.) I don't personally care which one you use (so long as there is a list that devs _expect_ users to post to without getting territorial) but you might as well kill off the other one, imo. There has actually been a marked improvement in dev reaction to user questions on dev m-l afaics, but as Neddy cautioned this might just be down to the summer vacation. Personally I'd just have one list, but I do accept they have differing mission statements, so my vote would be for just extending the remit of project to include questions from users wrt code. That way it could serve as a filter for dev m-l for all new motivated users, and the dual purpose would lead to greater devs interest. I'm not saying the remit isn't different to other lists; just that the proliferation leads to less interest in each list. My 2p ;) [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/37195
list created. Please wait 30 minutes before swimming in it so you don't drown.
