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Bug 105809 - Changes to documentation to help ease end-user issues
Summary: Changes to documentation to help ease end-user issues
Status: VERIFIED FIXED
Alias: None
Product: [OLD] Docs-user
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Handbook (show other bugs)
Hardware: All Linux
: High normal (vote)
Assignee: Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED)
URL:
Whiteboard:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2005-09-13 08:21 UTC by Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED)
Modified: 2005-11-16 12:01 UTC (History)
5 users (show)

See Also:
Package list:
Runtime testing required: ---


Attachments
Patch to Gentoo docs regarding stage1/2 deprecation (TEMPFILE,94.67 KB, patch)
2005-11-05 15:07 UTC, Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED)
Details | Diff

Note You need to log in before you can comment on or make changes to this bug.
Description Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-13 08:21:53 UTC
There's several changes that could be made to the Handbook to reduce the number
of bugs we receive from our users.

#1.  Recommend that users *never* change CHOST unless they are sure of what they
are doing.

#2.  Change the "The CHOST variable defines what architecture gcc has to compile
programs for." in the Handbook to better explain that this means *architecture*
and not sub-architecture types.  Users are taking it to mean that they need to
change it to match their CPU type, within a single architecture.  This is
causing issues like bug #88777, which could be avoided completely.

#3.  Recommend to all users that they do a stage3 installation.  Explain that
doing a stage3 installation, making changes to make.conf, performing an "emerge
sync" and running an "emerge -e world && emerge -v depclean" is faster than
doing a stage1 installation, with the same net result.  It is also less likely
to have errors and is the recommended installation method for *all* users.

Thanks guys... =]
Comment 1 Yassen Damyanov 2005-09-13 18:43:34 UTC
I guess that installation stages 1 and 2 which have been a Gentoo feature
from the very beginning (IIRC), will be defended by a number of people,
as they've been created as an incarnation of the Gentoo philosophy for
freedom of choice and customization.

On the other hand, we have the error prone stage1 install that brings
headaches to both users and developers.

It seems that those who insist on being able to customize the build
process from the ground up may get that via stage3 install and subsequently
recompiling the toolchain, the system and the world (forgive me if I am
wrong). This will not be shorter, but might be less error prone.

So my suggestion: make a step in the Gentoo evolution and replace stage1
and stage2 with the appropriate rebuilds *after* a stage3 install (which
will be essentially the sole stage to be released by the Gentoo team).

Pros:
 -- users will have a working stage3 system and *then* decide whether
    to optimize it more than what they already have.
 -- both developers and users will have simpler life with a single-stage
    distro (seems an important trade-off).
 -- lovers of extreme optimization can still get theirs, even via a more
    robust (although possibly somewhat longer) procedure.

Cons:
 -- the equivalent of the stage1 install will take longer than the
    "original" stage1 install. But that should be within about 20% of
    the whole time, so it seems quite acceptable.
Comment 2 Yassen Damyanov 2005-09-13 18:45:55 UTC
I guess that installation stages 1 and 2 which have been a Gentoo feature
from the very beginning (IIRC), will be defended by a number of people,
as they've been created as an incarnation of the Gentoo philosophy for
freedom of choice and customization.

On the other hand, we have the error prone stage1 install that brings
headaches to both users and developers.

It seems that those who insist on being able to customize the build
process from the ground up may get that via stage3 install and subsequently
recompiling the toolchain, the system and the world (forgive me if I am
wrong). This will not be shorter, but might be less error prone.

So my suggestion: make a step in the Gentoo evolution and replace stage1
and stage2 with the appropriate rebuilds *after* a stage3 install (which
will be essentially the sole stage to be released by the Gentoo team).

Pros:
 -- users will have a working stage3 system and *then* decide whether
    to optimize it more than what they already have.
 -- both developers and users will have simpler life with a single-stage
    distro (seems an important trade-off).
 -- lovers of extreme optimization can still get theirs, even via a more
    robust (although possibly somewhat longer) procedure.

Cons:
 -- the equivalent of the stage1 install will take longer than the
    "original" stage1 install. But that should be within about 20% of
    the whole time, so it seems quite acceptable.
Comment 3 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-15 06:39:22 UTC
(In reply to comment #2)
> I guess that installation stages 1 and 2 which have been a Gentoo feature
> from the very beginning (IIRC), will be defended by a number of people,
> as they've been created as an incarnation of the Gentoo philosophy for
> freedom of choice and customization.

We aren't removing the option, we're just telling them that they better know
what they're doing if they do start from stage1 or stage2.

> It seems that those who insist on being able to customize the build
> process from the ground up may get that via stage3 install and subsequently
> recompiling the toolchain, the system and the world (forgive me if I am
> wrong). This will not be shorter, but might be less error prone.

It *is* shorter as you don't have to compile all of the toolchain (everything
done by bootstrap.sh) twice.  Trust me, it takes much less time to extract a
stage3 tarball than it takes to compile glibc.

> So my suggestion: make a step in the Gentoo evolution and replace stage1
> and stage2 with the appropriate rebuilds *after* a stage3 install (which
> will be essentially the sole stage to be released by the Gentoo team).

Like I said, we aren't planning on not offering a stage1, so I don't know where
you got that idea.

> Cons:
>  -- the equivalent of the stage1 install will take longer than the
>     "original" stage1 install. But that should be within about 20% of
>     the whole time, so it seems quite acceptable.

A stage1 install takes *much* longer than a stage3 + customize + emerge -e world
+ emerge depclean.  I've timed it myself.  Having to compile all of
gcc/binutils/glibc twice takes much longer than compiling it only once.  All of
the other packages would have needed to have been recompiled anyway during the
course of going from stage1 to stage3 anyway, so you're talking about increasing
time rather than decreasing it by using a stage1.  You also don't end up with
any advantages in using a stage1 over a stage3, as the net result is the same.
Comment 4 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-15 11:17:01 UTC
Why is a stage3 + emerge -e world faster than a stage1? Personally, I don't
think we should list this stage3-like option in the installation handbook. After
all, its more of a Portage feature (rebuild everything) than an installation
(since the installation has already been done).

Better tell people that stage3 is the recommended method... which I thought we
already did.
Comment 5 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-16 06:12:51 UTC
OK, for the last time.  When doing a bootstrap, you compile the following:

bootstrap.sh:
virtual/baselayout
portage
virtual/os-headers
binutils
gcc
gettext (optional)
virtual/libc
texinfo
zlib
ncurses

Now, none of this is built with --nodeps, so it also compiles other packages. 
After this, you do an "emerge -e system", correct?

Now, doing a stage3 only install, you *only* do an "emerge -e system" without
compiling your toolchain twice.  This is much faster.

If you really think we shouldn't be telling users that performing a stage1 is
pretty much pointless, then I'm not really going to argue it anymore, but I'm
getting sick of all of these bugs where users have used a stage1, and don't
really understand anything about how bootstrapping works, and then complain to
us when they break their systems.  Basically, there should be a big fat warning
on stage1 installs explaining that only users that are advanced and know what
they're doing should use it, as they can potentially break their installation by
selecting invalid options or making incompatible changes.

At any rate, please do #1 and #2, as those would be very beneficial.
Comment 6 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-18 04:52:29 UTC
I'll take this one, time for some handbook reviewing/auditing/improving :)
Comment 7 barefootcoder 2005-09-23 09:11:20 UTC
As someone who just had to suffer through all the pain of the bug that spawned
this bug, I just combed through the doco looking at this issue.  Hopefully some
of this will be helpful.

The 3 places I see that must be changed in the handbook are:

Section 5e, obviously.  "Please make sure you have the _correct_ CHOST setting"
should be changed to something more along the lines of "Please make sure your
CHOST setting bears no relation to your system.  It doesn't really do anything
anyway; we just put it in there to mess with your head."

Section 6b.  For users of stage 3, there is no path in the current doco for
doing an emerge -e at all.

But the main one I want to make sure doesn't get forgotten about is 2b, where
one of the pros of stage 1 is " Allows you to have total control over the
optimization settings and optional build-time functionality that is initially
enabled on your system" and one of the cons of stage 2 is "You cannot tweak as
much as with a stage1".  According to Chris, these statements are blatant lies.
 Also, apparently, "Choosing to go with a stage3 allows for the fastest install
of Gentoo Linux, but also means that your base system will have the optimization
settings that we chose for you ..." isn't really true either.

Hope that helps Sven pin down where the changes need to go.
Comment 8 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-28 11:02:01 UTC
Okay, first change on the queue: stage* description.

Is http://dev.gentoo.org/~swift/tmp/medium.html a better one? It contains a fix
I had in mind for some time (when to pick which one) and changes the wording a
bit so regular users pick stage3.
Comment 9 Xavier Neys (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-29 03:36:01 UTC
(In reply to comment #8)
> Okay, first change on the queue: stage* description.
> 
> Is http://dev.gentoo.org/~swift/tmp/medium.html a better one? It contains a fix
> I had in mind for some time (when to pick which one) and changes the wording a
> bit so regular users pick stage3.

- stage1 takes a long time, even more than a stage3 followed by a full recompile
+ stage3 fastest way to get Gentoo up and running. Gives users the choice to
keep default optimisations, change them and recompile all packages (long but
still faster than stage1), or change them and let their system optimise itself
over time as packages are upgraded.
Comment 10 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-29 05:43:32 UTC
(In reply to comment #8)
> Okay, first change on the queue: stage* description.
> 
> Is http://dev.gentoo.org/~swift/tmp/medium.html a better one?

2005.0 and 2005.1's kernels were compiled for 586 (not Pentium) without "Generic
x86" in them.  This means it is possible that it will not boot on a 486 machine,
or some other processors missing instructions.

I think I would add a line after the "then a stage1 approach has no benefits for
you."  Something like the following:

"You must also be prepared to resolve any issues that come up with your system,
since you are going against the recommended and tested bootstrap setup by the
developers."

I also agree with Xavier's suggestion.
Comment 11 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-09-30 11:31:28 UTC
<FuzzyRay> BTW, doing a default stage 3 + Gnome from the GRP followed by an
emerge --update --deep --newuse is painful
<wolf31o2-work> how so?
<FuzzyRay> The upgrade to gcc 3.3.6 from 3.3.5-whatever breaks the libtool
files, libIDL has to be re-emerged otherwise it is looking for
i386-pc-linux-gnu-gcc when you have i686-pc-linux-gnu-gcc installed
<sanchan> FuzzyRay: which GRP packages are you using?
<FuzzyRay> packages-x86-2005.1.iso from gentoo.osuosl.org
<wolf31o2-work> and which stage3?
<FuzzyRay> i686 from the same place.  I haven't had issues resolving the
problems. But since I was following the handbook I can see how users run into
problems
<wolf31o2-work> x86 -> x86... i686 -> i686...
<FuzzyRay> I realized that when I started hitting problems. We should probably
make the handbook clearer on that though.

I think he's right.  We definitely need to make it clear that the PackageCD
*must* match the stage used.  I'm thinking big red flashing lights and a nice
air-raid siren ought to be good enough... ;]
Comment 12 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-10-02 11:08:00 UTC
(Same URL) better now?
Comment 13 Paul Varner (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-10-02 19:32:42 UTC
I would personally add an example to make it clearer.  Something like the following:

For example: If you use stage3-pentium4-2005.1.tar.bz2, you need to download and
use packages-pentium4-2005.1.iso
Comment 14 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-10-03 11:08:49 UTC
If I could keep it platform-independent that would be great; the entire section
is completely shared across architectures (even though we currently use a
copy/paste method since GuideXML doesn't allow sharing such stuff yet) and a
good candidate for "real" sharing if we could improve GuideXML to that.

I'd like to keep it that way.
Comment 15 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-10-09 09:34:20 UTC
Changes are now live.
Comment 16 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-10-31 13:59:29 UTC
I don't think the recommendations for stage3 usage are nearly strong enough...

I now have 2 bugs related to issues with "emerge -e system" where problems occur
due to USE flag settings.  If, for any reason, any package that is in system has
any package in its dependency tree that can *possibly* depend on a configured
kernel, then we have a problem.

I currently have a discussion going on over on gentoo-releng mailing list
discussing possible permanent solutions to this problem.  Unfortunately, I
cannot think of any that work properly aside from telling users that we won't
support anything less than a stage3 installation to not offering any stages
prior to stage3 for download.

As the complexity of Gentoo increases, the likelyhood of us hitting more and
more of these errors that simple cannot be tested for in a reasonable amount of
time is going to only increase.

I would go so far as to add something in a <warn> block stating something
similar to #3 my original post.

Release Engineering does not recommend that *anyone* use *anything* but a stage3
tarball for *any* reason unless they are intimately familiar with toolchains and
programming and are willing to troubleshoot and repair any possible problems
that occur during their installations, as only the default set of USE flags are
tested for any given architecture.
Comment 17 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-01 12:02:53 UTC
There seems to be enough reason to reopen...
Comment 18 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-05 15:07:15 UTC
Created attachment 72245 [details, diff]
Patch to Gentoo docs regarding stage1/2 deprecation

First attempt at deprecating stage1/2 from the handbook (but not from the
gentoo docs of course).
Comment 19 Bjarke Istrup Pedersen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-06 17:49:58 UTC
I'm not sure if I got this wrong.
I have always been using a stage1 to do my installs, because I didn't know any 
better, and like being able to customize things.
Leaving users with stage3 would be a bad thing, since several of the packages 
of the virtuals have been installed (like nano, instead of vim/emacs), so the 
user has to remove these and their dependencies manully, which might be more 
complicated that just using a stage2 and going from there with the virtuals 
you want.

I'm I getting it wrong?
Comment 20 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-06 21:21:50 UTC
It keeps surprising me why people often refuse to read...

"""
The stage1 or stage2 installations will remain possible and will even remain
documented and officially maintained
"""

We are just going to put the information elsewhere, outside the handbook.
Comment 21 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-11 09:27:20 UTC
Going, going, gone...

Committed. Now, the bootstrapping/system stuff is part of the Gentoo FAQ.
Comment 22 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-11 10:25:50 UTC
swift++

Thanks for getting this done.  I'm hoping that having it removed from the
Handbook will reduce the number of erroneous bug reports that get filed, along
with the number of people wasting time with a stage1 installation.
Comment 23 Nathan Toone 2005-11-14 06:55:25 UTC
I like the changes made to the handbook - and they make a lot more sense - but 
it seems to me that there should be some section in there that mentions 
something to the effect of:

"If you would like to better optimize your system (and get a system similar to 
one that was previously installed using a stage 1 tarball), you should run the 
following command:

emerge -e world

Note:  This is an OPTIONAL step, and will take a LONG TIME"

Maybe this would make best sense in the "Where to go from here" or "Finalizing 
your Gentoo Installation" sections
Comment 24 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-14 07:43:27 UTC
I'd tend to agree... and definitely somewhere at the bottom... I'd probably say
in the "Where to go from here" section, simply because we don't want people
doing an "emerge -e world" on a networkless install...  Though it is slightly
out of scope for the *installation* part of the Handbook
Comment 25 Yassen Damyanov 2005-11-15 05:16:16 UTC
To me the changes tend to sound "debianish", in a sense that a complete newcomer
cannot understand the buzz around the stages and the related /etc/make.conf
variables.

Example: "If the CHOST variable does not look correct to you, you might be using
the wrong stage3 tarball."

How can he tell what value of CHOST is wrong and what is right? One might well
get the feeling that we are telling him something like: "Here's something you
don't know about; and we won't explain what it is to a fool like you as you will
never get it, but anyway, if it has the wrong value, you got the wrong stage3
tarball."

I know, it's not said that way _at all_, but that might be an interpretation
coming from the fact that essential information is missing.

A decent explanation is due, or the handbook tends to sound unfriendly and
obscure for noobs. Gentoo used to be the most open and friendly distro I could
think of, with the most honest and transparent guide.

I would volunteer with a suggestion for edition, if that would be at least
considered.
Comment 26 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-15 06:01:03 UTC
What does any of that have to do with *this* bug?

If you think the CHOST section needs a bit of revamping, feel free to open a bug
on it.  The changes that I have requested have been fulfilled.
Comment 27 Yassen Damyanov 2005-11-15 07:02:33 UTC
> What does any of that have to do with *this* bug?

At least _some_ of that has, if you read carefully. I treat the changes
subject to *this* bug. The CHOST part is only an illustration.

> If you think the CHOST section needs a bit of revamping, feel free to open
> a bug on it.  The changes that I have requested have been fulfilled.

Good suggestion -- thanks; I'll consider it.
Comment 28 Daniel Shen 2005-11-16 05:02:25 UTC
I will appreciate if Release Engineering Team can provide and maintain two 
tracks of installation handbook: one is for the impatient who need only the 
flexibility of the gentoo installation--that's the stage 3 route; also that can 
be the recommended way of install a gentoo. The other is for those bravehearts 
who don't fear the wasted time and torture of some troubleshooting according to 
his/her knowledge/skills in GNU/linux(though it should be bug-free if s/he 
follow the handbook exactly), that can be called Advanced Gentoo Installation 
Handbook, if you like. In fact, many users (included me) switched from other 
distros of linux to gentoo just because the beauty of gentoo that can build up 
its dominance only from a few tools installed on any flatform(that's really a 
fascinating idea). Personally, I don't think FAQ is a right place to hold 
stage1 and stage2 installation as it is too short and not go up with every 
release. Also doing an information hiding of stage1 or stage2 won't reduce the 
silly questions asked by newusers as it deprives the chance of users to learn 
from the try-and-error process, that will make users dumber--that will bring up 
more problems during his/her using gentoo or make them dump the gentoo 
completely. To cultivate user
Comment 29 Daniel Shen 2005-11-16 05:02:25 UTC
I will appreciate if Release Engineering Team can provide and maintain two 
tracks of installation handbook: one is for the impatient who need only the 
flexibility of the gentoo installation--that's the stage 3 route; also that can 
be the recommended way of install a gentoo. The other is for those bravehearts 
who don't fear the wasted time and torture of some troubleshooting according to 
his/her knowledge/skills in GNU/linux(though it should be bug-free if s/he 
follow the handbook exactly), that can be called Advanced Gentoo Installation 
Handbook, if you like. In fact, many users (included me) switched from other 
distros of linux to gentoo just because the beauty of gentoo that can build up 
its dominance only from a few tools installed on any flatform(that's really a 
fascinating idea). Personally, I don't think FAQ is a right place to hold 
stage1 and stage2 installation as it is too short and not go up with every 
release. Also doing an information hiding of stage1 or stage2 won't reduce the 
silly questions asked by newusers as it deprives the chance of users to learn 
from the try-and-error process, that will make users dumber--that will bring up 
more problems during his/her using gentoo or make them dump the gentoo 
completely. To cultivate users ability to face problem bravely (and even solve 
some problems by themselves) step by step by expose all information to them is 
a great philosophy of gentoo.
Comment 30 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-16 05:55:53 UTC
*sigh*

This bug is CLOSED.  The bug requestor has had his request filled.  Quit posting
your opinions to this bug.  This is *not* a discussion forum.

(In reply to comment #28)
> I will appreciate if Release Engineering Team can provide and maintain two 
> tracks of installation handbook: one is for the impatient who need only the 
> flexibility of the gentoo installation--that's the stage 3 route; also that 

Release Engineering does not maintain the Handbook, which is why this bug is
here in the first place.

> be the recommended way of install a gentoo. The other is for those bravehearts 
> who don't fear the wasted time and torture of some troubleshooting according to 
> his/her knowledge/skills in GNU/linux(though it should be bug-free if s/he 
> follow the handbook exactly), that can be called Advanced Gentoo Installation

So you want an "Advanced" Handbook that has exactly 0 "advanced" topics in it? 
Somehow, I think that would be a waste of time for our documentation team to
keep up with.
 
> Handbook, if you like. In fact, many users (included me) switched from other 
> distros of linux to gentoo just because the beauty of gentoo that can build up 
> its dominance only from a few tools installed on any flatform(that's really a

Nobody is taking away that ability.  This is what you seem to be missing out on
here.  I have already answered this *several* times in this bug.

YOU ARE NOT LOSING ANYTHING WITH THIS CHANGE.

Also, for those of you that bought into the "stage1 is good" misinformation, I
regret to inform you that you bought into a lie and an illusion.  I know that it
hurts to be told that your beliefs are unfounded, but it is the truth.  If
you're doing a stage1 or even a stage2 installation, you are wasting your time.
 This is even more so if you are not *personally* modifying the bootstrap
process to do something that *is not achievable* via portage.  Following the old
stage1 instructions is 100% achievable by doing a stage3, customizing, then
running emerge -uDN world && emerge -v depclean.

100% achievable.
 
> fascinating idea). Personally, I don't think FAQ is a right place to hold 
> stage1 and stage2 installation as it is too short and not go up with every 
> release. Also doing an information hiding of stage1 or stage2 won't reduce the 
> silly questions asked by newusers as it deprives the chance of users to learn 
> from the try-and-error process, that will make users dumber--that will bring

Users do not learn a damn thing by typing in:

scripts/bootstrap.sh
emerge -e system

I'm sorry, but that is a simple truth.  Giving them the lower stage options
*does* increase the chances of errors immensely.

> more problems during his/her using gentoo or make them dump the gentoo 
> completely. To cultivate user
Comment 31 Chris Gianelloni (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-16 05:55:53 UTC
*sigh*

This bug is CLOSED.  The bug requestor has had his request filled.  Quit posting
your opinions to this bug.  This is *not* a discussion forum.

(In reply to comment #28)
> I will appreciate if Release Engineering Team can provide and maintain two 
> tracks of installation handbook: one is for the impatient who need only the 
> flexibility of the gentoo installation--that's the stage 3 route; also that 

Release Engineering does not maintain the Handbook, which is why this bug is
here in the first place.

> be the recommended way of install a gentoo. The other is for those bravehearts 
> who don't fear the wasted time and torture of some troubleshooting according to 
> his/her knowledge/skills in GNU/linux(though it should be bug-free if s/he 
> follow the handbook exactly), that can be called Advanced Gentoo Installation

So you want an "Advanced" Handbook that has exactly 0 "advanced" topics in it? 
Somehow, I think that would be a waste of time for our documentation team to
keep up with.
 
> Handbook, if you like. In fact, many users (included me) switched from other 
> distros of linux to gentoo just because the beauty of gentoo that can build up 
> its dominance only from a few tools installed on any flatform(that's really a

Nobody is taking away that ability.  This is what you seem to be missing out on
here.  I have already answered this *several* times in this bug.

YOU ARE NOT LOSING ANYTHING WITH THIS CHANGE.

Also, for those of you that bought into the "stage1 is good" misinformation, I
regret to inform you that you bought into a lie and an illusion.  I know that it
hurts to be told that your beliefs are unfounded, but it is the truth.  If
you're doing a stage1 or even a stage2 installation, you are wasting your time.
 This is even more so if you are not *personally* modifying the bootstrap
process to do something that *is not achievable* via portage.  Following the old
stage1 instructions is 100% achievable by doing a stage3, customizing, then
running emerge -uDN world && emerge -v depclean.

100% achievable.
 
> fascinating idea). Personally, I don't think FAQ is a right place to hold 
> stage1 and stage2 installation as it is too short and not go up with every 
> release. Also doing an information hiding of stage1 or stage2 won't reduce the 
> silly questions asked by newusers as it deprives the chance of users to learn 
> from the try-and-error process, that will make users dumber--that will bring

Users do not learn a damn thing by typing in:

scripts/bootstrap.sh
emerge -e system

I'm sorry, but that is a simple truth.  Giving them the lower stage options
*does* increase the chances of errors immensely.

> more problems during his/her using gentoo or make them dump the gentoo 
> completely. To cultivate users ability to face problem bravely (and even

Again, we aren't out to make market share.  If some users are upset by these
decisions, while we hate to see them go, that is their choice.  We are not
planning on leaving around a broken process simply so a few misinformed users
can have their warm fuzzies.

> some problems by themselves) step by step by expose all information to them is 
> a great philosophy of gentoo.

You're more than welcome to build your own stage1 tarballs and support them
yourselves.  The Release Engineering team will not be supporting them.  At some
point in the near future, we probably will not even be releasing stage1
tarballs, possibly as soon as the next release.

Again, I am sorry if you bought into the illusion that you're actually gaining
anything from watching compiler text scroll by faster than you could possibly
read it.

I would like to conclude this by saying, once again, that this is not a
discussion forum.  This is a bug.  The bug poster has had his request filled by
the appropriate party and his request has been fulfilled.  If you want to
continue to discuss this, take it to a mailing list or the forums.  Do not post
any more opinions to this bug, they aren't being asked for, nor are they
warranted.  To keep from having to see more of this, I'm filtering emails from
this bug, so there is no point in responding, as again, this is not a discussion.
Comment 32 Sven Vermeulen (RETIRED) gentoo-dev 2005-11-16 12:01:40 UTC
Also, for the rest of the comments that are here or will be, chances are high
that a bootstrapping guide will emerge from the input I'm gathering about
bootstrapping: when is it needed, how to do it properly, what it entails, etc.

/And/ the stage12 stuff is at http://www.Gentoo.org/doc/en/faq.xml#stage12