Bug 252102 – html emails silently ignored on gentoo mailing lists without needed prior warnings to subscription

• Product: Community Relations
• Status: RESOLVED FIXED

[Description Mark David Dumlao 2008-12-21 21:56:32 UTC]

e-mails on various gentoo mailing lists are silently ignored if they are
available in html format. No or insufficient prior warnings against html
e-mails are part of the mailing list subscription process, the mailing list
pages, or documentation pointing to the mailing lists.

Because they are ignored silently, senders are not even aware that there is a
communication issue at all, and by default will assume that people are just
uninterested in their particular thread or topic.

duplicate of bug 251931, after bugzilla user error rendering bug inaccessible to reporter.

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
Case 1: Mailing list background information
1. Look for a mailing list to subscribe to at the gentoo website
(http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml)
2. Observe that there are no warnings against html emails.
===
Case 2: Mailing list subscription information
1. Send a subscription email to [e-mail]
2. Receive your confirmation mail.
3. Send a subscription confirmation / reply to the mail.
4. Observe that there are no warnings against html emails.
===
Case 3: Every day usage
1. Formulate an interesting, solvable question giving plenty of information.
2. Post the question to a subscribed gentoo mailing list
3. Observe a marked difference in reply volume / rate to other posts compared
to your post, typicaly at zero.


Actual Results:  
Users do not read or reply to mails sent in html format. Postings get silently
ignored. There are no warnings against sending html formats.



Expected Results:  
Warnings at the mailing list listing, subscription process, and possibly when
sending regarding sending html emails. Possibly a published netiquette guide
for the gentoo mailing list.



I have been informed that there are periodic anti-html postings in the mailing
list itself. This is a wrong solution, because the usage patterns of a
developer mailing list have to do with software-based skimming and filtering
for topics.

It is especially relevant for users to be aware of an effective community-wide html embargo, since many mail readers transparently read and write plain and html emails, and many even default to them.

[Comment 1 Ferris McCormick (RETIRED) 2008-12-21 22:56:46 UTC]

*** Bug 251931 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

[Comment 2 Ferris McCormick (RETIRED) 2008-12-21 22:58:32 UTC]

I've marked 251931 as a duplicate of this bug and removed restrictions from both.

[Comment 3 Alec Warner (RETIRED) 2008-12-26 14:35:46 UTC]

I am unaware of any restrictions like this, but infra would know for sure.

Please provide MessageID's of messages that you sent to the list (that were available in HTML) but you think were withheld from being sent to the list.

Thanks,

-Alec

[Comment 4 Robin Johnson 2008-12-26 23:55:04 UTC]

(responding as infra)
We don't squelch HTML mails at all.

Assuming used your example address from bugzilla, here are all the mailing list system traces I see for you:

gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Fri Dec 12 16:27:17 2008 mlmmj-sub: request for regular subscription from [e-mail]
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Fri Dec 12 16:27:42 2008 mlmmj-sub: [e-mail] confirmed subscription to regular list
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Fri Dec 12 16:28:48 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 15 14:06:27 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Sun Dec 21 09:46:32 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Sun Dec 21 19:22:38 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Sun Dec 21 20:09:37 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Sun Dec 21 22:05:37 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Sun Dec 21 22:56:18 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 22 01:06:08 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 22 01:26:57 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 22 01:32:26 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 22 01:50:05 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 22 01:53:08 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 22 02:10:36 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 22 04:03:37 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Mon Dec 22 14:51:32 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Tue Dec 23 00:47:17 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Tue Dec 23 00:58:51 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Tue Dec 23 22:01:35 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Tue Dec 23 22:20:52 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"
gentoo-user/mlmmj.operation.log:Wed Dec 24 14:52:06 2008 mlmmj-process: access - A mail from "[e-mail]" was allowed by rule #14 "allow"

(Some of the lists require rotating the logs daily however, so if you sent it to another list, I'd like to know which one, and dates and times).

[Comment 5 Robin Johnson 2008-12-26 23:59:39 UTC]

Message ids for the most recent ones that were still in other logs:

Dec 22 04:03:37 pigeon postfix/cleanup[17171]: 92B46E07FE: message-id=<[e-mail]>
Dec 22 14:51:32 pigeon postfix/cleanup[26309]: B1905E0904: message-id=<[e-mail]>
Dec 23 00:47:17 pigeon postfix/cleanup[2734]: EE920E0953: message-id=<[e-mail]>
Dec 23 00:58:51 pigeon postfix/cleanup[4698]: 2BCFCE0A76: message-id=<[e-mail]>
Dec 23 22:01:35 pigeon postfix/cleanup[12081]: 17429E0809: message-id=<[e-mail]>
Dec 23 22:20:52 pigeon postfix/cleanup[15540]: 615B6E08B5: message-id=<[e-mail]>
Dec 24 14:52:06 pigeon postfix/cleanup[7083]: 72484E0741: message-id=<[e-mail]>

[Comment 6 Robin Johnson 2008-12-27 00:03:44 UTC]

I can't tell easily which ones are text/html, so you'll have to say which of your original mails are text/html.

[Comment 7 Mark David Dumlao 2008-12-28 10:39:50 UTC]

Hi guys,
This isn't about mails being squelched from the mailing list, more on the mailing list culture being harsher on html mails than on outside, but without any warnings from the site etc, about sending html mails.

One typical use case of the mailing list will involve subscribing to only ask one or two questions. There isn't enough space in that use-case to be informed of any community preferences on html mail. Thanks.

[Comment 8 Robin Johnson 2008-12-28 23:23:17 UTC]

As we noted, there are no policies on HTML mail being banned. It's certainly discouraged, but it is still accepted. It seems that the gentoo-user list however has taken on a life of it's own and has gone stricter than other lists on the anti-HTML crusade.

I just added this paragraph to the lists.xml page:
http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/main/en/lists.xml?r1=1.109&r2=1.110

userrel: if that's enough, close the bug please.

[Comment 9 Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto (RETIRED) 2008-12-29 12:14:36 UTC]

Sounds good to me.
Closing