17:46 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: actually, jstubbs does not agree with you last I looked.
17:46 <@brad[]> Certain proprietary operating systems start requisite services as part of the desktop environment
17:46 <@ferringb_> nor does genone
17:46 <@ciaranm> jstubbs implemented it for me
17:46 <@ferringb_> think I was the only one who thought it was a half way decent idea to jam it in there; the proposed solution was addition of metadata, not abusing existing.
17:46 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: clarify.
17:46 <@ciaranm> he wanted to find out whether it would break anything
17:46 <@ciaranm> it didn't
17:48 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: again, clarify.
17:48 <@ferringb_> bug #, explicit statement of what he actually implemented, etc.
17:48 <@ciaranm> certain people were spreading sneaky rumours that changing USE_EXPAND would make portage explode
17:49 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: just stick to the facts please
17:49  * SuperLag waits for the mushroom cloud
17:49 <@spock> blackace: AFAIK Fedora uses Xvesa for rhgb
17:49 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: what are you specifically referencing that he implemented; simple question
17:49 <@spyderous> ajax: as i recall, it actually caused problems to start kdrive, then stop it, then start regular X
17:49 <@ciaranm> ferringb_: wouldn't you rather infer things from vaguely worded truths?
17:49 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: I'd rather de-op you and throw you out of here.
17:50 <@ferringb_> but right now I'm going through the proper channels.
17:50 <@ferringb_> so play nice, as I've attempted.
17:50 <@ciaranm> ferringb_: the details were provided in the channel where this was under discussion. you weren't there, and this doesn't concern you, so stop poking around
17:51 <@ferringb_> gah... do I have to sit in here to watch your statements?
17:51 <@ferringb_> just answer the question
17:51 <@ciaranm> no no, no need to join if you'd rather not. you could not get involved if you prefer
17:52 <@ferringb_> bleh, still working well with others I see.
17:52 <@Halcy0n> ferringb_: you aren't helping.
17:52  * antarus sighs
17:52 <@ferringb_> Halcy0n: sorry, I respond to sarcasm with sarcasm.
17:52 <@ferringb_> meanwhile I'll just ask jason specifically, bit easier.
17:52 <@ciaranm> sure. i'm working just fine with the qa team. who are in another channel, discussing the issue properly, rather than relying upon forwarded half-statements from a peon
17:53 <@antarus> ciaranm, to be clear I pasted the entire conversation
17:53 <@antarus> so if they were half statements you made then :)
17:53 <@antarus> s/then/them
17:53 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: and I'm asking because no such changes were made, if they were I want to know when/how
17:53 <@ciaranm> yes, but the people involved in said conversation already knew about what i was talking
17:53 <@ferringb_> and since you're stating it, you presumably know when it was modified.
17:54 <@ciaranm> you've had enough bug and -dev mail about it
17:54  * ferringb_ sighs
17:54 <@antarus> you jokingly(?) said you would modify the source of another project of which you aren't a member
17:54 <@ciaranm> antarus: uh, no i didn't
17:55 <@ciaranm> what's the deal with certain people inventing things and claiming i said them?
17:55 <@antarus> That was my interpretation
17:55 <@antarus> my apologies if thats not what you meant
17:55 <@ciaranm> now read what i actually said
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17:56 <@antarus> <antarus> ciaranm: b) i can do this quite easily without portatge commit access
17:56 <@ciaranm> yupyup
17:56 <@ferringb_> antarus: key thing is that there is no indication he requires portage modification for it.
17:56 <@ferringb_> word games.
17:56 <@rane> who can fix a typo in man euse?
17:56 <@ciaranm> i don't require portage modification for it
17:57 <@ferringb_> or misinterpretation, either way it's a stupid thing to get the knickers in a twist over.
17:57 <@rane> ferringb_: could you?
17:57 <@ferringb_> rane: not right now (no cvs access)
17:57 <@antarus> rane, I can
17:57 <@ciaranm> and i don't require portage modification because jstubbs changed portage to not require modification for it
17:57 <@rane> antarus: good
17:57 <@ciaranm> is all now becoming clear?
17:58 <@antarus> see that only took like 15 minutes of arguing ;)
17:58 <@rane> antarus: there's line "[-    ]  moznocompose  (net-www/mozilla):.br Disable building of" - just press an enter before .br :)
17:58 <@rane> antarus: thanks in advance :)
17:58 <@ferringb_> antarus: annoying thing is, still need to find out what the change exactly was. :)
17:58 <@ciaranm> antarus: dude. Halcy0n understood it just fine straight off
17:58 <@antarus> good for him, some of us are "peons" and take a bit longer
17:59 <@rane> like me
17:59 <@ciaranm> so, if you didn't understand, why did you run off crying that i was going to modify portage?
17:59 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: he dumped me the log because you were being a tool; called venting.
17:59 <@antarus> I pasted because someone asked for it
17:59 <@ferringb_> one particular chunk of your statement I wondered about, thus I popped in.
18:00 <@ferringb_> from there... the pissing fest. :)
18:00 <@antarus> after I commented that you were being your usual fun self
18:00 <@ciaranm> ferringb_: uh, no, i was having a technical discussion with someone who understood exactly what i was saying, and then the peanut gallery stepped in
18:00 <@ferringb_> oy.
18:01 <@ciaranm> now, since you asked so politely and didn't jump to any silly conclusions, the bug starts with an 8, and has USE_EXPAND in the title
18:01 <@ciaranm> if you want more than that, you'll have to wait for me to grep for it
18:03 <@ciaranm> !metadata bitpim
18:03 <+jeeves> ciaranm: Package: app-mobilephone/bitpim  Herd: mobile-phone Maintainer: mobile-phone Description: 		BitPim is a program that allows you to view and manipulate data on LG		VX4400/VX6000 and many Sanyo Sprint cell phones. This includes the		PhoneBook, Calendar, WallPapers, RingTones (functionality varies by		phone) and the Filesystem for most Qualcomm CDMA chipset based phones.	
18:03 <@ferringb_> I don't think he added features to use_expand there...
18:03 <@ferringb_> I'd bet he added test pass through
18:04 <@ciaranm> ferringb_: no. he moved USE_EXPAND to be a profile setting rather than a make.globals setting
18:04 <@ferringb_> if features was being expanded by USE_EXPAND, it would be prefixed.
18:04 <@ciaranm> yup
18:04  * spyderous resyncs for fluxbox fix
18:05 <@ciaranm> spyderous: that's Halcy0n's fault btw
18:05 <@spyderous> ok
18:05 <@Halcy0n> Hrm?
18:05 <@ciaranm> you told me i could delete all those files :P
18:06 <@Halcy0n> I didn't tell you to break anything though :)
18:06 <@ciaranm> pffff.
18:07 <@spyderous> would people prefer to just have a VIDEO_CARDS setting for all ati cards, or to have it split out into radeon, rage128 and mach64?
18:07 <@ciaranm> mmm. fatal: app-text/ggv-2.8.5::x-/usr/portage: Couldn't generate metadata
18:08 <@ciaranm> spyderous: split it!
18:08 <@ciaranm> no point in being half-arsed about modular deps
18:08 <@spyderous> got a decent reason, or just because modularization is a cool fad
18:08 <@spyderous> well it doesn't actually change deps at all
18:08  * ciaranm has a radeon and no rage128 or mach64
18:08 <@spyderous> just will change what's built within mesa and x11-drm
18:08 <@spyderous> so with a radeon, you'd save yourself 2 3d drivers and 2 kernel modules
18:09 <@ciaranm> incidentally, your x package count is wrong, since several packages that you think are ported actually aren't, and won't trigger the repoman check either
18:09 <@spyderous> example?
18:09 <@spyderous> any package.mask'd file i don't think will get checked
18:09 <@ciaranm> dunno. i'm filing bugs as i go. lots of people can't spell xinerama
18:09 <@ciaranm> some people can't spell X11
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18:10 <@spyderous> as it's basically testing what's emergeable on my system for whether it tries to pull in xorg
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18:12 <@spyderous> kinda wish configure scripts had a good way to define deps so they could parallelize
18:15 <@ciaranm> mmm. packages that PDEPEND upon themselves. whatever next?
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18:28 <@marienz> spyderous: btw, xkbdata depends on xkbcomp, xkeyboard-config doesn't. Is that intentional?
18:29 <@spyderous> marienz: sure it does, cvs up
18:29 <@marienz> heh, sorry :)
18:29 <@nerdboy> yo peeps
18:30 <@marienz> still don't know why my scrolllock light started behaving mysteriously, but meh.
18:30 <@nerdboy> just be glad you don't have one of those ibm rack/kvm keyboards
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18:37 <@spyderous> blackace: updated ideas.txt again
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18:58 <@ciaranm> mmmfun. use_enable in global scope
18:58 <@ciaranm> that won't even work
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18:59 <@ferringb_> for executing ebuilds it ought to.
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18:59 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: do not enable the features USE_EXPAND btw.
18:59 <@ferringb_> it's non incremental, and a bit horked (try FEATURES="-*")
19:00 <@ciaranm> ferringb_: congratulation, you get to reopen the bug
19:00 <@ferringb_> not really.
19:00 <@ferringb_> as I've said, wrong way of doing it.
19:01 <@ferringb_> should be seperate metadata imo...
19:01 <@ciaranm> *shrug* come up with a better solution that's usable and we'll do that instead
19:01 <@ferringb_> come up with something usable, or hack the existing crap to make it usable...
19:01 <@ciaranm> it'll need to handle SRC_URI too
19:02 <@ferringb_> TEST_* was proposed, and addresses it fine here.
19:02 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: it also allows features to adjust provides
19:02 <@ferringb_> which is part of the reason it shouldn't have been added.
19:02 <@ferringb_> same for restrict, although I'm not sure of the state of use parsing for restrict (should be there, but suspect someone removed that)
19:02 <@ciaranm> you can abuse most portage features for all sorts of things
19:02 <@ciaranm> if anyone does it, give them a wedgie
19:03 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: we're in this god awful mess cause people kept abusing portage is the thing...
19:04 <@ferringb_> anal about it, but do it right, if you have to hack it, hack it so it can be done correctly down the line.
19:04 <@ciaranm> design a system that can't be abused and you've designed a system that can't be used
19:04 <@ferringb_> introducing that injection into the use namespace just plain sucks imo.
19:04  * ferringb_ disagrees, but regardless.
19:04 <@ferringb_> either way it doesn't work, so don't use it
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19:07 <@ciaranm> mmm. define "doesn't work"
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 08 19:14:04 2006
--- Log opened Wed Feb 08 19:14:37 2006
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19:22 <@SpanKY> grr flameeyes
19:22 <@SpanKY> i dont mind when you add fixes, but do em right
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19:24 <@ferringb_> SpanKY: curious, you got the default src_install function handy?
19:25 <@ferringb_> the desired one, not what's currently in portage
19:25 <@ciaranm> wasn't the general concensus that a default src_install that does stuff would be a very bad idea?
19:26  * ferringb_ recalls the consensus the other way around
19:26 <@ferringb_> issue iirc was that introducing it without some form of protection == bad things
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19:27 <@SpanKY> src_install() { emake -j1 install DESTDIR="${D}" || die ; }
19:27 <@ciaranm> no [[ -f README ]] && dodoc README etc?
19:28 <@SpanKY> i think there was stuff for common autotool files
19:28 <@ciaranm> also, emake install?
19:28 <@ciaranm> we usually discourage that because of the extra variables
19:28 <@SpanKY> for x in AUTHORS ChangeLog NEWS README ; do [[ -s ${x} ]] && dodoc ${x} ; done
19:28 <@SpanKY> ciaranm: we only discourage it due to -j
19:28 <@ferringb_> SpanKY: ciaranm: figure one out
19:29  * ferringb_ doesn't particularly care what the form of it is, as long as it suits peoples needs.
19:29 <@ciaranm> SpanKY: mmm. are you sure?
19:29 <@ferringb_> removing that features crap and doing it right, going to need to force an eapi bump anyways; might as well slip it in alongside (no point in having 2 bumps).
19:29 <@SpanKY> ciaranm: yes, 99% sure
19:29 <@SpanKY> `emake -j` is very bad
19:29 <@SpanKY> but i dont know of any other make option that'd be bad
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19:30 <@ciaranm> ok. in that case, why not make emake force -j for install targets?
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19:30 <@SpanKY> you mean -j1
19:31 <@ciaranm> uh, yeah
19:31 <@SpanKY> i dont see why not
19:31 <@SpanKY> is there a way to sanely detect you're in src_install() ?
19:31 <@ferringb_> eh?
19:31 <@SpanKY> ferringb: shush, men are talking
19:31 <@ciaranm> SpanKY: there is... or you could check the targets
19:32 <@SpanKY> ciaranm: i dont like checking $@
19:32  * ferringb_ reiterates, eh?
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19:32 <@SpanKY> that assumes the target is "install" and that you dont want to do something funky in src_compile or src_test
19:32 <@ciaranm> SpanKY: ok. then use the phase
19:32 <@SpanKY> is that like the force ? :P
19:33 <@ciaranm> noooo! EBUILD_PHASE or something like that, give or take underscores and caps
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19:34 <@SpanKY> http://rafb.net/paste/results/xyX85r15.html
19:34 <@SpanKY> how's that
19:35 <@ciaranm> wfm
19:35 <@ferringb_> ugh.
19:35 <@SpanKY> ferringb_: you may speak now
19:35 <@ferringb_> SpanKY: any reason you're unwilling to just call that from the default src_install?
19:35  * ferringb_ flips off spanky in the meantime
19:35 <@ferringb_> SpanKY: special casing the tools for ebuild_phase seems like a hack
19:35 <@SpanKY> so devs can define their own src_install()
19:36 <@ferringb_> ...and define -j1 themselves, imo.
19:36 <@SpanKY> unless we go on some crusade to make sure `make install` is parallel-safe, i dont see much point
19:36 <@SpanKY> especially considering devs cant even make sure src_install is parallel-safe
19:37 <@ciaranm> if it uses autotools, install isn't parallel safe
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19:37 <@SpanKY> yeah, autotools guys dont really care
19:37 <@ferringb_> use a wrapper func that tags it in then...
19:37 <@SpanKY> cause the gain is negligible
19:37 <@SpanKY> hmm, by a wrapper func, do you mean "emake" ?
19:37 <@SpanKY> that seems pretty wrapper-tastic to me
19:37 <@ferringb_> gain is that it keeps EBUILD_PHASE in ebuild.sh instead of letting it bleed into the tools
19:37 <@ciaranm> SpanKY wins
19:38 <@SpanKY> what else would you propose ferringb_ ?  let the wrappers bleed in the other direction ?
19:38 <@ferringb_> define a func in ebuild.sh that tags the arg on, calling emake.
19:38 <@ferringb_> hell, stick whatever extra install crap you want into it that's useful.
19:39 <@SpanKY> both seem equivalent to me
19:39 <@SpanKY> but i prefer mine obviously
19:39  * ciaranm prefers SpanKY's too
19:39 <@SpanKY> ciaranm: that wont help convince ferringb :p
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19:40 <@ciaranm> hasn't he learned that i'm always right yet? :(
19:40 <@ferringb_> SpanKY: bit wrong on that
19:40 <@ferringb_> if it's sound technically, fine, I just don't think sticking the hack into the tool itself is good from a maintenance standpoint.
19:41 <@ciaranm> EBUILD_PHASE is more permanent than relying upon two way interfaces
19:41 <@fox2mike> antarus: ping
19:42  * ferringb_ thinks not, obviously :)
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19:42 <@ferringb_> ebuild_phase is a semi recent addition anyways, came in during .50 iirc.
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19:42 <@ferringb_> might've been .51_pre's actually, but besides the point.
19:43 <@ferringb_> figure out a src_configure while you're at it too.
19:43 <@ferringb_> might as well get all of that crap out in one bump.
19:43 <@ciaranm> src_patch too please
19:43 <@ciaranm> or src_prepare
19:43 <@ferringb_> bleh
19:43 <@ciaranm> user hooks
19:43 <@ferringb_> we have user hooks already
19:43 <@ciaranm> yes, and they're much nicer on src_prepare
19:44 <@ferringb_> clarify src_prepare
19:44 <@ciaranm> src_patch
19:44 <@ferringb_> we've got hooks around all of the phases now
19:44 <@SpanKY> ferringb_: using a function limits the usuablity
19:44 <@ciaranm> patch implies patch, not sed
19:44 <@SpanKY> bash funcs cant be piped/env-ed/etc...
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19:44 <@ferringb_> SpanKY: err... bash funcs can be piped unless I'm missing something obvious in your statement
19:45 <@ferringb_> iirc, you can define the default redirection for a func even (never seen it used though)
19:45 <@SpanKY> env emake foo
19:45 <@SpanKY> that'll [intuitively] give you diff behavior than just 'emake foo'
19:45 <@ciaranm> ferringb_: anyway, the interface segregation principle says that i'm right
19:45 <@ferringb_> yah.
19:45 <@ciaranm> on both counts
19:46 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: that's not how you convince me...
19:46 <@SpanKY> you have to sex him up first
19:46  * ferringb_ notes "xyz says I'm right" is akin to "some other dude thinks this is the way it should be" in his reading of it
19:46 <@ciaranm> no, you get jason to do it
19:47 <@ferringb_> ciaranm: better luck with genone from a time standpoint.
19:47 <@ciaranm> no, it's "this large body of software engineering literature says it's right"
19:47 <@ferringb_> ugh
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19:47 <@ferringb_> SpanKY: a default configure phase would be nice to have.  don't care about patch atm unless someone makes a damn good arguement for it.
19:47 <@ferringb_> meanwhile, throw the books around, back to work
19:47 <@ciaranm> ferringb_: how about "avoids duplicating unpack cd"
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20:00 <@SpanKY> ferringb: ?
20:00 <@antarus> fox2mike, pong
20:01 <@SpanKY> ferringb: you never commented on my last DEBUG_BUILD patch btw :P
20:02 <@fox2mike> antarus: your GPG key expires in march and well, it doesn't have your @gentoo.org ID attached to it :)
20:02 <@fox2mike> antarus: could you please add that ID and upload the key to subkeys.pgp.net?
20:02 <@ciaranm> antarus: you never answered ferringb's question about how you think FEATURES in USE_EXPAND breaks
20:03 <@antarus> ciaranm, yes he requested the version
20:03 <@antarus> which was 2.1_pre4
20:04 <@ciaranm> ok. now you get to tell me how it breaks!
20:04 <@antarus> I think he didn't note that i had removed it from incrementals
20:04 <@ciaranm> so it breaks if you break FEATURES?
20:05  * ciaranm is somewhat not astounded
20:05  * ciaranm demands a new excuse from ferringb!
20:10 <@antarus> as to what, why not to turn it on?
20:10 <@ciaranm> as to why Halcy0n can't add FEATURES to USE_EXPAND
20:12 <@antarus> I don't know of any technical reason preventing that from happening
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20:12 <@antarus> There are only semantic reasons, aka, we would like a better way of doing it
20:12 <@antarus> but you knew that already
20:12 <@ciaranm> Halcy0n: ^^ you have the goahead
20:12 <@antarus> FEATURES are portage FEATURES, not package features
20:13 <@ciaranm> ...
20:15 <@antarus> This is all in reference to TEST, is it not?
20:15 <@ciaranm> this is in reference to "we need some way to have conditional deps and src_uri components for src_test"
20:15  * antarus nods
20:17 <@antarus> any reason to just drop features = test and make it a use flag?
20:18 <@antarus> er not to..
20:18 <@ciaranm> use flags affect the resulting binary
20:18 <@ciaranm> features affect how the binary is built but do not modify the binary
20:19 <@antarus> USE=symlink
20:19 <@ciaranm> is broken. we had this discussion
20:20 <@antarus> features=noman nodoc noinfo
20:20 <@ciaranm> also, it does modify the binary, for a sufficiently vague value of binary
20:20 <@ciaranm> doesn't modify the binary!
20:20 <@antarus> "installed files" then
20:20 <@ciaranm> plus no* is deprecated in favour of INSTALL_MASK
20:20  * antarus nods
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20:21 <@antarus> of course in this case we are going off of your definition of what use flags and features do
20:21 <@Halcy0n> Which is what the correct definition should be.
20:21 <@ciaranm> it's how it was originally intended
20:21 <@nerdboy> you can't have a rule without the occasional exception
20:22 <@antarus> nerdboy, beer for nerdboy ;)
20:22 <@ciaranm> no need to go and add more exceptions just because you don't understand the rule
20:23 <@antarus> perhaps I merely disagree with "how the rule was originally intended" :)
20:23 <@ciaranm> in which case you would be wrong
20:23 <@antarus> No, that would be my opinion
20:23 <@ciaranm> facts aren't a matter of opinion
20:23 <@antarus> opinions cannot necessarily be wrong, merely different
20:24 <@antarus> how is an intention fact?
20:24 <@ciaranm> if your opinion is that 2 + 2 = 5, does that mean anything other than that you are wrong?
20:24 -!- RiverRat [n=me@gentoo/user/RiverRat] has quit [Connection timed out]
20:24 <@antarus> and we are off subject yet again
20:24 <@ciaranm> it's entirely relevant
20:25 <@ciaranm> stop trying to turn facts into matters of opinion
20:25 <@antarus> so do you have an e-mail or reference to back up your fact?
20:26 <@ciaranm> from four years ago?
20:26 <@ciaranm> http://dev.gentoo.org/~plasmaroo/devmanual/general-concepts/features/
20:26 <@ciaranm> there's your reference
20:26 <@antarus> written by you
20:27  * nerdboy probably has email older than both you guys
20:27 <@antarus> thanks, I'd like what is the word I'm looking for...
20:27 <@antarus> Reputable evidence ;)
20:27 <@ciaranm> devmanual is your best source of reputable evidence
20:27  * antarus wonders why he even bothers
20:27 <@Cardoe> lies!
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20:28 <@nerdboy> the separation makes perfect design sense
20:28 <@nerdboy> but that doesn't mean you can't break the norm for a special package like kernel-source
20:28 <@nerdboy> the USE="symlink" thing
20:29 <@ciaranm> my objection was more that it's a global flag on that one
20:29 <@nerdboy> any changes broader in scope probably point towards a new design rather than a retro-fit
20:29 <@antarus> the other example is probably kde-enable-delta-final
20:30 <@ciaranm> antarus: i objected to that one too
20:30 <@Halcy0n> Just because you can name a few exceptions doesn't mean we should needlessly make more.
20:30  * nerdboy is pretty sure ciaranm objects to most things...
20:30 <@nerdboy> :)
20:30 <@ciaranm> nerdboy: only the stuff that's wrong :)
20:30 <@Halcy0n> nerdboy: he didn't object to me being the QA lead.
20:30 <@ciaranm> Halcy0n: now you're just finding a few exceptions
20:30 <@antarus> nor did I :)
20:31 <@Halcy0n> ciaranm: bah :P
20:32 <@antarus> Halcy0n, the problem being we then have to special case features_test because we don't want the other features bleeding through
20:33 <@ciaranm> uh, no we don't
20:33 <@ciaranm> we do want the other features bleeding through
20:33 <@Halcy0n> And if we didn't, offer a new better idea, not abusing USE flags.
20:33 <@antarus> erm, the day you need to do something special to your ebuild because features_digest is enabled....
20:34 <@ciaranm> so? extra entries in USE doesn't hurt
20:34 <@ciaranm> just shove through all of features and let ebuild authors do whatever they want
20:34 <@antarus> Extra USE flags = extra metadata
20:34 <@ciaranm> so?
20:34 <@antarus> lang.desc fex
20:35 <@ciaranm> so?
20:35 <@antarus> so are you volunteering to maintain it?
20:35 <@ciaranm> what, sticking FEATURES into USE_EXPAND? sure
20:36 <@ciaranm> the maintenance load on that is... uh... adding it, and then hitting anyone who removes it
20:36 <@antarus> and then the USE_EXPAND flags in IUSE, and then putting them in features.desc...
20:36 <@ciaranm> easy enough
20:36 <@ciaranm> nnnnope
20:36  * antarus chuckles
20:36 <@ciaranm> USE_EXPAND is exempt from IUSE and *.desc
20:36 <@antarus> at present
20:36 <@ciaranm> and will continue to be so, since IUSE_USERLAND makes no frickin' sense
20:37 <@antarus> Nah, I meant IUSE="kernel_linux userland_GNU" fex
20:37 <@antarus> the actual flags
20:37 <@ciaranm> yes. that makes no sense
20:37 <@antarus> and exempting them means what for IUSE?
20:37 <@ciaranm> IUSE video_cards_ makes sense, since it's something a user would want to set
20:38 <@ciaranm> IUSE kernel_ doesn't, since it's not a general user setting
20:38 <@antarus> what is IUSE then, if not a list of USE flags the ebuild uses
20:38 <@ciaranm> a setting that makes it easy for portage to tell the user about stuff they can change in packages
20:39 <@Halcy0n> Users can't change kernel_linux.  They don't need to be made aware of it.
20:39 <@ciaranm> that is why we have IUSE, and it is also why certain USE flags aren't listed in IUSE
20:39 < ferringb> Halcy0n: do not enable features in use_expand.
20:39 <@antarus> Halcy0n, but they can change FEATURES, and in your method, FEATURES are in USE
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20:39 <@antarus> so you want IUSE="features_"
20:39 <@antarus> basically
20:39 <@ferringb> Halcy0n: do not enable features in use_expand.
20:39 <@antarus> heh
20:40 <@ciaranm> antarus: no. changing FEATURES is not a general build setting
20:40 <@ferringb> be patient.  2.1 will have test_* metadata, mainly because I wasn't aware jason slipped that in.
20:40 <@Halcy0n> ferringb: where did I say I was?
20:40 <@ciaranm> something like two thirds of the tree uses the bootstrap USE flag but doesn't list it in IUSE because it'd be silly for the user to change it. you know that, right?
20:40 <@ferringb> Halcy0n: stating it since ciaran was telling you to...
20:40 <@ferringb> ciaranm: same for you, don't abuse that.
20:40 <@ciaranm> ferringb: it's not abuse until you come up with a better usable solution
20:40 <@antarus> ciaranm, so how do I know if an ebuild supports testing or not?
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20:41 <@ciaranm> antarus: not a general user setting
20:41 <@ferringb> ciaranm: just do what I tell ya, alright?
20:41 <@ferringb> no debate here
20:41 <@antarus> ummm yes it is? :)
20:41 <@ciaranm> antarus: the average user does not care whether an ebuild needs special stuff for test
20:41 <@ciaranm> ferringb: you are wrong here
20:41 <@antarus> The user does care if an ebuild has tests or not
20:42 <@antarus> and the only way for them to know is a use flag
20:42 <@antarus> and you are suggesting we hide it
20:42 <@ciaranm> antarus: uh, ebuilds don't define whether or not they have tests
20:42 <@ciaranm> the features_test flag will only be used for cases where a package has tests that require extra stuff
20:43 <@ciaranm> the features_test flag will not be used by the majorith of packages that have tests
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20:45 <@ciaranm> antarus: i await a new excuse!
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20:53 <@antarus> ciaranm, yes well, I have actual work to do, so maybe later
20:54 <@ciaranm> in the mean time, i've still not heard what's stopping us from fixing a couple of dozen bugs
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21:05 <@Ticho> good morning
21:05 <@fox2mike> morning Ticho
21:08 <@ferringb> ciaranm: back that up beyond stating it...
21:08 <@ciaranm> back what up?
21:09 <@ferringb> "you are wrong here"
21:09 <@ciaranm> come up with some justification other than "because i said so" and i will
21:09 <@ferringb> features should not bleed into use.
21:10  * ferringb has already stated that.
21:10 <@ciaranm> they don't, since they're prefixed
21:10 <@ferringb> and it's not hard to do it properly.
21:10 <@ciaranm> features_* aren't user-visible USE flags
21:10 <@ciaranm> so pollution isn't a problem
21:10 <@ferringb> bolsh.
21:10 <@ferringb> it's injected into the use namespace.
21:10 <@ferringb> that's the fundamental issue.
21:11 <@ciaranm> and it's subnamespaced via the prefix
21:11 <@ferringb> it's in the namespace, yes or no?
21:11 <@ciaranm> it's in a child namespace of the use namespace
21:11 <@ciaranm> which is a pretty common programming technique
21:14 <@ferringb> bleh, phone.
21:14 <@ferringb> ciaranm: it can be done properly, seperated metadata.
21:15 <@ferringb> jamming it in isn't valid imo, and at this point, it's a judgement call.
21:15 <@ferringb> ciaranm: finally, if you're going to post snippets of irc logs from dev, post them all please.
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21:15 <@ferringb> wasting my time correcting it.
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21:16 <@ciaranm> that was all of it, minus the random other people saying totally unrelated stuff
21:16 <@ferringb> seemed to have left out the lead in, and the statement of "I'm going via the proper channels".
21:17 <@ferringb> it's akin to "senior devrel members making accusations of drug abuse".  it's bs, no point in doing the games.
21:17 <@ciaranm> read on
21:17 <@ciaranm> note the executive summary, since no-one in devrel's going to bother reading anything else if they vote
21:18 <@ferringb> ugh.
21:18 <@ferringb> ciaranm: why are you here?
21:18 <@ferringb> seriously, what is your driving force for fucking with people?
21:19 <@ciaranm> i'm here to work on making gentoo suck less
21:19 <@ferringb> why not just do it right from the start in your own little corner?
21:19 <@ciaranm> because back in the good old days, gentoo was a better starting point
21:20 <@ferringb> these aren't the good old days.
21:20 <@ferringb> these days, people are expected to do their work without being an asshole to others.
21:20 <@ciaranm> no, but it shouldn't be too much effort to get us moving back that way
21:20 <@ferringb> ciaranm: the processes and beuracracy that slows gentoo is a reaction to folk like you.
21:20 <@ferringb> and yes, folk like pvdabeel
21:20 <@ferringb> people doing stuff on their own that is damaging to gentoo as a whole
21:20 <@ciaranm> no, they're a reaction to half our devs being dead weight
21:21 <@ferringb> hardly.  
21:21 <@ferringb> devrel cleansing of devs is removal of dead weight (actual dead weight).
21:21 <@hparker> ciaranm: Uhm, hate to bust your buble, but.... devrel reads all of it
21:21 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you're assuming production == worth
21:21 <@ferringb> the real calculation is production - social cost of the contributor == worth
21:22 <@ferringb> some folk get along with you fine, others do not.
21:22 <@ferringb> if they're working on something you dislike, or dislike their methods, you harass the fuck out of them.
21:22 <@ciaranm> ferringb: i am not the one doing the harassing
21:22 <@ferringb> end result is that either you do the work (unlikely), they do it regardless, or they stop.
21:22 <@ferringb> bullshit.
21:22 <@ferringb> I've put up with how many months of your potshots at portage and prefix, combined with lies and games every time it's brought up?
21:23 <@ciaranm> or, the end result is that they engage in a decent techincal discussion, come up with the best solution and then do that
21:23 <@ferringb> people don't get along, you go out of your way to be a jack ass to 'em.
21:23 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you're incapable of engaging in a decent technical discussion is the problem.
21:23 <@ferringb> you fall back to harassing/attacking.
21:23 <@ciaranm> which is what usually happens, except when people like you try to avoid the technical discussions and resort to flaming people on bugzilla
21:23 <@ferringb> you have no say in a project you're not involved in, nor responsible for.
21:23 <@ciaranm> ferringb: there're plenty of people out there who disagree. have you ever considered that you are the problem, and not me?
21:23 <@ferringb> just the same as I have no say in paludis.
21:24 <@ciaranm> ferringb: funnily enough, i am involved in Gentoo
21:24 <@ferringb> fancy that, I'm the maintainer of the pkg maintainer in gentoo.
21:24 <@ferringb> s:pkg maintainer:pkg manager:
21:24 <@ferringb> frankly, if that doesn't define me as involved, nothing will.
21:24 <@ciaranm> and you should realise that work on the package manager affects the project as a whole
21:24 <@ferringb> thank you captain obvious.
21:25 <@ferringb> ciaranm: you should realize your behaviour affects the whole of gentoo also.
21:25 <@ferringb> but... you won't respond to that one will you?
21:25 <@ferringb> you'll just deflect it.
21:25 <@ferringb> and we'll go round and round, wasting more fucking time.
21:25 <@ciaranm> ferringb: my behaviour is not the problem. i am not the one running around harassing people rather than having a proper technical discussion
21:25 <@ferringb> ciaranm: there is no technical discussion to be had.
21:25 -!- npmccallum [n=mgrnatem@nicholasville-terayon1-67-20-52-12.ironoh.adelphia.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
21:26 <@ciaranm> ferringb: see, that's the problem. a technical discussion is needed
21:26 <@ferringb> ciaranm: jesus you're a hypocrite.
21:26 <@ferringb> it's no different to how you're running paludis, the difference is that our source is open.
21:26 <@ciaranm> anyone who wants to discuss technical issues with paludis is more than welcome to do so
21:26 <@ferringb> we're working on the problem in our own corner, and will share results with others when we deem it ready.  if they want it, they can have it, else we can use it for our own purposes (outside of gentoo)
21:27 <@ferringb> that's the thing here, nothing is being forced- you're attacking because (frankly) you don't seem to like either the concept or those involved.
21:27 <@ferringb> which is flat out bullshit.
21:27 -!- grahl04 [n=grahl04@128.227.22.195] has quit ["-"]
21:27 <@ferringb> feel free to call it harassment when someone calls you on it.
21:27 <@ciaranm> no, what i don't like is the mess that's going to be made when you try to merge it
21:28 <@ferringb> uh huh.  you're attacking because of an action we've stated we will not do, further an action that hasn't occured.
21:28 -!- zmedico [n=zmedico@cpe-66-27-157-183.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:28 <@ferringb> ciaranm: so I have the right to murder my neighboer because I think he's shady and may kill me some time in the future.
21:28 <@ferringb> good logic.
21:28 <@ciaranm> ferringb: no, i'm basing it upon past behaviour
21:28 <@ferringb> what behaviour?
21:28 <@ferringb> oh yes, pvdabeel.
21:28 <@ferringb> your usual chestnut.
21:29 <@ferringb> where is he involved?
21:29 <@ferringb> where are you even involved, able to comment on this?
21:29 <@ciaranm> ...and curtis119, and you, and drobbins, and everyone else who's ever tried to push through a large change
21:29 <@ferringb> ...
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 08 21:30:01 2006