20050506 DevRel meeting log

gentoo-devrel-20050506.log (text/plain), 79.35 KB, created by Tim Yamin (RETIRED) on 2005-05-21 13:10:18 UTC

22:18 :::: tantive![e-mail] has joined #gentoo-devrel
22:18 < tantive> hi all
22:18 < tantive> plasmaroo: ping
22:19 <@plasmaroo> tantive: Pong.
22:19 <@plasmaroo> tantive: AFK, back in a moment.\
22:19 < tantive> plasmaroo: you are reading -core?
22:23 < tantive> anyone in here reading core?
22:23 <@seemant> not me
22:23 <@seemant> what happened?
22:23 < tantive> just another flamewar
22:24 < tantive> and ppl thinking they are "god"
22:24 <@seemant> like that's news
22:24 < tantive> or whatever
22:24 < tantive> yeah
22:24 < tantive> even the names are already well known
22:24 < tantive> makes me sad
22:24 <@seemant> yeah well
22:25 <@seemant> we're so big atm, as far as personnel, it's bound to happen
22:25 < tantive> sure
22:25 < tantive> but i think devrel is not that good atm as it could be
22:26 < tantive> i think plasmaroo knows what i mean
22:26 **** plasmaroo is back.
22:26 <@plasmaroo> tantive: No, but looking now.
22:26 < tantive> yeah
22:26 < tantive> just read the last thread with that "nice" flamewar between ciaranm and patrick
22:26 < tantive> and don't miss the part where vapier kicks in
22:27 < tantive> nothing more to say
22:30 <@plasmaroo> I'm just tempted to leave the monkeys alone...
22:31 <@plasmaroo> Throwing anything in the fire would only cause more ignition/
22:32 < tantive> great
22:32 < tantive> that was exactly what i expected
22:33 <@plasmaroo> Nod, I'll keep an eye on it if it progresses further.
22:33 < tantive> erm
22:33 < tantive> *heh*
22:33 < tantive> *sigh*
22:33 < tantive> yeah
22:33 < tantive> just do so
22:33 <@plasmaroo> Heh, ok.
22:34 < tantive> that's exactly what you tell me several weeks/months now
22:34 < tantive> "we have an eye on it"
22:34 <@plasmaroo> Well, I can't do anything but talk to them.
22:34 < tantive> "if it happens again"
22:34 < tantive> yeah, sure
22:34 < tantive> you are only devrel
22:34 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: ^^
22:34 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Can you do anything about this?
22:34 < tantive> and devrels job are developer relations
22:34 < tantive> imho
22:34 < tantive> plasmaroo: you don't have to
22:34 < tantive> i won't exepect anything
22:35 < tantive> sorry for disturbing you
22:36 <@plasmaroo> Um, see the latest -core mail anyway.
22:36 < tantive> yeah
22:36 < tantive> i noticed that
22:37 < tantive> and i don't say patrick has done nothing or has not provoked him or whatever
22:37 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
22:37 < tantive> i'm just noticing that devrel doesn't do anything besides talking
22:37 < tantive> which is not helping in this case
22:37 <@plasmaroo> Nod, but disciplinary actions are not for me to decide.
22:37 <@plasmaroo> I'm just the Ombudsman and I just mediate...
22:38 **** Astinus huggles plasmaroo.
22:38 <@plasmaroo> OoOoh Astinus!\
22:38 <@Astinus> But isn't he a cool Ombudsman :D
22:38 < tantive> yeah
22:38 <@plasmaroo> tantive: I'd write to something at devrel@ for discussion IMO.
22:38 < tantive> from my point of view
22:39 <@plasmaroo> Other people are more likely to comment and reply and hopefully possibly do something.
22:39 < tantive> devrel had more than enough time to decide on such things
22:39 < tantive> i tried to comment
22:39 < tantive> sure
22:39 < tantive> but it's not worth the time
22:39 < tantive> maybe we all shouldn't write flame mails
22:39 < tantive> but work on our bugs
22:39 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
22:39 < tantive> or do something other
22:39 < tantive> i don't know
22:40 <@Astinus> tantive:  A lot of -DevRel work elsewhere and can't monitor the channel, an email is sure to reach them 8)
22:40 < tantive> the only thing i can tell
22:40 < tantive> all this stuff isn't very good for my health at all
22:40 <@Astinus> Well.. They're busy elsewhere and might miss your messages in here
22:40 < tantive> Astinus: which channel? i am talking about a mailing list
22:40 <@plasmaroo> Hence the suggestion to mail.
22:40 < tantive> Astinus: and as devrel can't read everything i juste told you "read that"
22:40 <@plasmaroo> tantive: If we don't know people are affected by the issue, we can't do anything.
22:41 < tantive> jep
22:41 < tantive> exactly
22:41 <@plasmaroo> And I'm saying you need to speak to DevRel as a group so please contact devrel@
22:41 <@Astinus> tantive:  Oh, I was suggesting you write your thoughts and concerns into a mail to [e-mail]
22:41 < tantive> oh, aha
22:41 < tantive> i should write a mail?
22:41 < tantive> i see
22:41 <@plasmaroo> Yes.
22:41 < tantive> yes
22:41 < tantive> sure
22:41 <@plasmaroo> Thanks.
22:41 <@Astinus> tantive: It's bound to reach everyone then, and it can be reviewed and receive group input.
22:41 < tantive> and what will happen then?
22:41 <@plasmaroo> More people will comment.
22:41 < tantive> ah, great
22:41 < tantive> that sound so good
22:41 <@Astinus> tantive:  Enough comments -might- equal some action :o)
22:42 <@plasmaroo> Yes, please keep that in mind.
22:42 < tantive> thanks again for your suggestions
22:42 **** Astinus nods.
22:42 < tantive> sure
22:42 <@Astinus> you're welcome
22:44 **** tantive just wonders if this is an official channel or not
22:44 < tantive> maybe it's best i paste all logs i have in one big mail
22:44 < tantive> should completely fullfill your reqeuest
22:49 <@dmwaters> tantive: it's an official channel, but not everyone is here all the time to wait for people.
22:49 <@dmwaters> tantive: we have things like work that distract us.
22:52 < tantive> the mail adress was devrel@g.o?
22:52 <@plasmaroo> Yes.
22:52 < tantive> good
22:55 <@dmwaters> tantive: ok, here's my question to you.
22:55 <@dmwaters> tantive: what do you want us to do about him. the reality of the fact is that he's not doing anything outwardly wrong.
22:55 <@dmwaters> (ciaranm)
22:57 <@dmwaters> tantive: he antagonizes people, yes, but he's always done that, and we can't do anything about that. if we start telling people what they can and can't say, well, i'm sure you get the picture.
22:58 < tantive> so in a project as big as gentoo
22:58 < tantive> there are no rules?
22:58 <@plasmaroo> There are.
22:58 <@plasmaroo> See Etiquette guide.
22:58 < tantive> obviously not
22:58 < tantive> yeah
22:58 <@plasmaroo> However, it depends per each case.
22:58 <@plasmaroo> As we /can't/ make a dictionary of "banned" words or anything... and we never will.
22:58 < tantive> and if you don't play as the rulez tell?
22:58 < tantive> what happens?
22:58 < tantive> nothing?
22:59 <@dmwaters> tantive: problem is he sits on the boarder of those rules.
22:59 <@plasmaroo> Depends on the situation.
22:59 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yep.
22:59 < tantive> from my point
22:59 < tantive> he crossed them several times
22:59 <@Astinus> ciaranm is a specialist on knowing where the line is, and never putting more than one little finger over it.
22:59 < tantive> but that depends on point of view
22:59 < tantive> sure
22:59 < tantive> from my point of view he can almost do anything he wants
23:00 <@dmwaters> tantive: here's the thing
23:00 <@plasmaroo> No, he can do anything he wants as long as he doesn't cross the line, IMO.
23:00 <@plasmaroo> He crosses the line and then that's another matter.
23:00 <@dmwaters> we get a complaint now and then about him and how he talks
23:01 <@dmwaters> tantive: but he doesn't do anything to get himself in trouble
23:01 < tantive> ok
23:01 <@dmwaters> tantive: most if not all of the complaints we get are "ciaranm has said this"
23:01 < tantive> so this is the normal situation that ppl living close to the line win in live
23:01 < tantive> dmwaters: and the problem with that is?
23:02 <@dmwaters> tantive: how would you like it if i started telling you you couldn't say things
23:02 <@dmwaters> tantive: and i kept telling you
23:02 <@dmwaters> tantive: and i suspended you just because you said something
23:02 <@plasmaroo> And that if you do something (such as CVS access would be removed) would happen just if you said somethign?
23:02 < tantive> if i wanted to work for this project
23:03 < tantive> and if i would have something that might have been wrong
23:03 < tantive> point is that i behave not like him
23:03 < tantive> so i think you won't have to tell me such things
23:03 <@dmwaters> tantive: you're a nice person, that's the difference:)
23:03 < tantive> dmwaters: saying something is the one thing
23:04 <@dmwaters> tantive:  he never does anything, he just doesn't know when to stop talking
23:04 < tantive> dmwaters: doing so officially where everyone can see it is the other
23:04 < tantive> dmwaters: maybe thats my problem
23:04 <@Astinus> tantive:  Honestly, the problem Gentoo faces is he can be a complete asshole, but he also does pretty good work. He doesn't go 'too far' - always just within the rules. It makes it very hard to prosecute or justify any action 8)
23:04 < tantive> i am too nice
23:04 < tantive> Astinus: ack
23:04 Users #gentoo-devrel:
23:04 [@Astinus ] [@dostrow_work  ] [@iggy     ] [@seemant] [ alexander] [ cybersystem] 
23:04 [@avenj   ] [@eradicator    ] [@Obz      ] [@SeJo   ] [ beu      ] [ Pylon|gum  ] 
23:04 [@dmwaters] [@eradicator|spc] [@plasmaroo] [@slarti ] [ beu`     ] [ tantive    ] 
23:04 :::: Irssi: #gentoo-devrel: Total of 18 nicks 12 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal
23:04 < tantive> and from my point "gentoo" choose to take his work and see other ppl go
23:05 < tantive> which leads us back to the "discussion" on core
23:05 <@Astinus> tantive:  If you've read his new dev guide at all, you'll see his work can be exceptional at times.
23:05 <@dmwaters> tantive: the problem is astinus is right
23:05 < tantive> is someone who commits 300 ebuild a month and doesn't care about the bug reports better than someone who does
23:05 < tantive> translation stuff or gwn or whatever
23:05 < tantive> i think no
23:05 < tantive> ciaranm thinks yes
23:05 <@dmwaters> tantive: i'll tell you what.
23:05 < tantive> thats the main point
23:05 <@dostrow_work> with the grand exception of his recent actions in the forums he also makes sure to do the worst of it via private channels like -core
23:06 <@Astinus> dostrow_work:  Indeed, which .. means he's not publicly damaging the image of Gentoo
23:06 < tantive> dmwaters: i just stop and we are all happpy again
23:06 < tantive> dmwaters: ok?
23:06 <@Astinus> dostrow_work:  And again makes it hard to prosecute to any extent :P
23:06 <@dmwaters> tantive: mail devrel
23:06 <@dmwaters> tantive: get others who have complaints to do as well
23:06 <@iggy> bait him further till he crosses the line if you really want to do something about it
23:06 <@plasmaroo> Or that.
23:07 <@Astinus> iggy++
23:07 < tantive> dmwaters: that is exactly what i do since february
23:07 <@dmwaters> tantive: trust me that i say i have my reasons for that
23:07 < tantive> iggy: he did with dma147 imho
23:07 <@plasmaroo> tantive: Several people are not here right now, who would influence any decisions.
23:07 < tantive> gentoo-stats.org
23:07 <@iggy> dma147 is a prat imho
23:07 <@plasmaroo> tantive: Hence send a mail to devrel and encourage others to do so.
23:08 < tantive> plasmaroo: i get a feeling of deja vu
23:08 <@dostrow_work> tantive: there are only two resolutions available to us, we wait for him to f**k up bigtime and tolerate him until then, or we actaully take disciplinary action and cause one hell of a major fracture in the gentoo dev community, maybe even a fork
23:08 <@plasmaroo> tantive: Not quite, you haven't mailed us about the issue in the past.
23:08 < tantive> ah
23:08 < tantive> someone starting to talk clear
23:08 <@iggy> it would be more of a splinter with as many people as he's pissed off
23:08 < tantive> plasmaroo: i thought it was ok to tell you
23:09 < tantive> plasmaroo: you never told me i should mail it
23:09 <@plasmaroo> tantive: I just did.
23:09 < tantive> plasmaroo: you always told me
23:09 < tantive> yes, now
23:09 <@Astinus> tantive: if in doubt, always mail it, then it's written record and all of DevRel gets it in their inbox
23:10 < tantive> you all have mail
23:10 <@Astinus> While IRC is great, it's almost impossible to get everyone in the same place, and at the same time 8)  Also, if we miss one or two people, and then action is taken, it sometimes causes bitching because they weren't consulted.
23:10 <@plasmaroo> Which is why action doesn't happen over IRC on most occasions.
23:10 <@Astinus> easiest path is a nicely worded email, which then generates more mail, and a coordinated decision ;)
23:10 < tantive> thanks again for telling me mail is a great invention
23:10 **** Astinus snickers.
23:10 <@Astinus> tantive:  s'ok ;)
23:10 < tantive> ;)
23:11 < tantive> dostrow_work: thats exactly what i see
23:11 < tantive> dostrow_work: and months ago there was something like "we will watch him, if he does something again we will do something"
23:11 < tantive> dostrow_work: but it looks like i missed some decisions
23:11 <@plasmaroo> No, that wasn't with ranting, that was with the whole +/-o issue.
23:11 < tantive> never mind
23:12 <@plasmaroo> That is something we take action against.
23:12 < tantive> read the log attached in my mail
23:12 < tantive> talk/write about it
23:12 < tantive> do whatever you want with it
23:12 <@dostrow_work> tantive: really though I agree with you and I wish there was some way we could do something that wouldn't cause the 20-30 people I can name off the top of my head and probably others as well to leave as a result.............
23:13 <@dostrow_work> it gets very murky very quickly
23:13 <@plasmaroo> Just because of one action we take.
23:13 <@plasmaroo> Hence it's not as simple as "you do something, devrel does blah in response". Doesn't work like that.
23:13 < tantive> if i had known earlier that this would lead to nothing
23:13 < tantive> i could have saved the time
23:13 < tantive> if i had known in february that dostrow_work now stated officially
23:14 < tantive> i could have saved you and me much time
23:14 < tantive> imho
23:14 <@dostrow_work> we almost lost the entire hardened project when we last took action on something major.......it's a very hard needle to thread.........so the offense needs to be large enough to make the needle not matter at all
23:14 < tantive> dostrow_work: if you do something about ciaranm then 20-30 ppl will leave?
23:15 < tantive> dostrow_work: what did i miss?
23:16 <@dmwaters> tantive: when we suspended pappy
23:16 < tantive> yeah
23:16 <@dmwaters> tantive: that got ugly
23:16 < tantive> after some moarning he accepted that
23:16 < tantive> he came back
23:16 < tantive> and everyone pointed at him "hey, lets provoce him a bit"
23:16 <@dmwaters> tantive: partially, the backlash was my mistake, but it was still ugly
23:16 < tantive> and it started again
23:17 < tantive> that was how i experienced it
23:17 < tantive> then pappy said "ok, i'll quit"
23:17 <@dmwaters> tantive: the thing is, devrel is in one of those positions where anything we do can make or break things
23:17 < tantive> sure
23:17 <@dmwaters> tantive: it sucks
23:17 < tantive> devrel is no easy position
23:17 < tantive> fully ack
23:17 < tantive> the point is
23:17 <@dostrow_work> tantive: there are that many people that I know of that think that devrel is a closed circle cabal with an agenda, without a clear cut mandate by the majority of the developer community, something that a large pile of "ciaranm said this" e-mail helps provide..............well yeah trust me we are just as frustrated as you since we get it from both sides and all...............
23:17 < tantive> you can't try to break nothing by doing nothing
23:18 <@dmwaters> tantive: but, the problem is that ciaranm is bigger then pappy
23:18 < tantive> imho no
23:19 <@dmwaters> tantive: meaning, firing/suspending him would cause all hell to break loose, so if we do something we need to make sure it's not going to hurt
23:19 < tantive> ciaranm just puts one finger over the line
23:19 <@dostrow_work> bigger, has been around longer, and has WAY more devs who agree with his position, daft as it may be
23:19 < tantive> pappy crossed the line one day and stepped back again
23:19 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: exactly.
23:19 < tantive> but that was too much
23:19 <@plasmaroo> dostrow_work: Yep.
23:19 < tantive> there are ppl who agree with ciaranm?
23:19 <@dmwaters> tantive: heh, pappy crossed the line and kept going:)
23:19 < tantive> you mean he might be able to fork?
23:19 <@dmwaters> tantive: dunno if i'd say agree, but like
23:20 < tantive> you mean those ppl who just say nothing
23:20 <@dmwaters> tantive: i dunno. what i do know is it would cause a lot of problems
23:20 < tantive> sure it would
23:20 < tantive> as devrel is no easy position
23:20 < tantive> you got to do what you got to do
23:20 < tantive> if devrel says "he is within the line"
23:21 < tantive> then i'm ok with it
23:21 <@dostrow_work> tantive: the other thing is there is also no official mandate the we even have the power to unilateraly punish people
23:21 < tantive> it's hard to accept but ok
23:21 < tantive> dostrow_work: no comment
23:21 <@dmwaters> tantive: i've fired 3 devs in the last year i've been in devrel, it sucks.
23:21 < tantive> that one sound like "we even CAN'T do anything, no one gave us power..." come on
23:22 < tantive> dmwaters: sure it sucks, being a manager in a company sucks as well
23:22 <@dmwaters> tantive: it's not about power
23:22 < tantive> sorry
23:22 < tantive> have to go to bed now
23:22 <@dmwaters> tantive: if your actions aren't understood or respected, you won't be around long, will you
23:22 < tantive> pretty late now
23:23 < tantive> dmwaters: yeah, but there have been enough "he said this" mails as you told
23:23 <@dmwaters> tantive: for the most part, devrel has respect and is understood, but there are those like ciaranm and a few other  who don't agree and fight all the time.
23:23 < tantive> maybe
23:24 < tantive> maybe there are other ppl who think the other way round
23:24 < tantive> think about it
23:24 <@dmwaters> i'm not following.
23:24 < tantive> maybe there are some ppl who think like me
23:24 < tantive> who don't see something happeneing
23:25 <@dmwaters> yes
23:25 < tantive> ppl annoyed by ciaranm
23:25 <@dmwaters> that is also possible
23:25 < tantive> i can understand you better now
23:25 < tantive> maybe others can not
23:25 <@dmwaters> maybe you should tell them
23:25 < tantive> maybe i don't have the time to do so?
23:26 < tantive> have to get up in 6 hours again
23:26 <@dmwaters> tantive: personally, i don't care for ciaranm, but my personal feelings can't interfear with devrel, i've let it happen before, and it's caused problems
23:26 <@dostrow_work> grumpydog anyone?
23:26 < tantive> i can understand that
23:26 <@dmwaters> tantive: I lost my temper with pappy. the end result was bad.
23:26 < tantive> devrel is about facts
23:26 < tantive> everything else makes no sense
23:27 <@dmwaters> tantive: i tried to help brad_mssw, the end result, was bad.
23:27 **** beu 's grumydog highlighter went off ..
23:27 <@dmwaters> tantive: so, i keep my feelings out of it as much as possible
23:27 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: yeah and there is still some resentment there
23:27 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: thanks.
23:28 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: brad hangs out in #-ppc64 and grumbles every now and then :(
23:28 < tantive> thank you all for discussing with me and being so patient
23:28 <@dmwaters> tantive: nods
23:28 <@dostrow_work> tantive: :-/
23:28 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: i still feel crappy about that one
23:28 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: understandable
23:28 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: because i like him, heh
23:29 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: though he probably thinks i hate him:p
23:29 <@iggy> what he got shouldn't have been much of a surprise
23:29 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: not entirely sure on that one
23:29 <@dmwaters> iggy: nah, maybe not, I'm just pissed that i tried  so hard to work with him, and he blew it 2 weeks into his probation period.
23:30 < beu> slarti: pingz0r :)
23:30 <@slarti> beu: pongz0r
23:32 <@dmwaters> devrel people see mail, please.
23:33 **** Astinus pats toucan.
23:33 **** dmwaters ponders what to do about food.
23:33 **** plasmaroo also...
23:34 <@dostrow_work> mmmm foood, neeeed food
23:35 <@dmwaters> hmm, what to have though..
23:35 <@dmwaters> don't want pizza, already had that twice this week.
23:35 **** dmwaters thinks..
23:35 <@Astinus> If you were on campus, I'd invite you for pasta
23:35 <@plasmaroo> Coffee...
23:35 **** Astinus loves his penne bolognese.
23:35 <@dmwaters> no, no coffee. i need to sleep tonight.
23:35 <@plasmaroo> Decaf?
23:37 <@dmwaters> hmm, chicken, pasta, and alfredo sauce...
23:37 <@dostrow_work> I think I'm going the hot dog route tonight, maybe with a slice of quiche
23:37 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: hm, i want some...
23:37 <@dmwaters> wait..
23:37 <@dmwaters> i have some hotdogs..
23:37 <@dmwaters> hmm
23:37 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
23:37 <@dmwaters> that works, and it's quick, to..
23:38 <@plasmaroo> !8ball Hot-Dogs?
23:38 <@dmwaters> thanks daniel:p
23:38 <@dostrow_work> any time love
23:38 <@plasmaroo> > The answer is tasty.
23:38 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: i might be in your area this summer..
23:38 <@dmwaters> :)
23:38 <@dostrow_work> cool
23:39 :::: jhuebel!~[e-mail] has joined #gentoo-devrel
23:39 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o jhuebel by ChanServ
23:39 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: we need to talk jason.
23:40 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: What's up?
23:41 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: you're elected:)
23:41 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: Ah, heh. :-)
23:41 <@jhuebel> I accept. :-)
23:41 :::: cshields!~[e-mail] has joined #gentoo-devrel
23:41 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o cshields by ChanServ
23:41 <@dmwaters> good.
23:41 <@cshields> my gosh I have so many channels to be in..  I always forget this one
23:41 <@cshields> :|
23:41 <@jhuebel> heh
23:41 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
23:41 <@dostrow_work> welcome corey
23:42 <@cshields> this makes /win 85  (I closed about a dozen the other day)   :)
23:42 <@Astinus> everyone appears, perhaps because of the email?? :)
23:42 <@plasmaroo> Mhm, see, email works.
23:42 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: I've decided to stay Strategic Lead for amd64 for now too.
23:42 <@Astinus> jason: good to hear it
23:42 <@dmwaters> cshields: hi
23:42 <@cshields> yeah.   it was a nice reminder of this channel.  It use to be just me and dmwaters in here so I quit lurking (nothing personal, Deedra)
23:42 <@dmwaters> cshields: welcome to insanity
23:42 <@dmwaters> cshields: i see how it is, you started working here and you want to hide from me:)
23:43 <@cshields> yeah..  my day job gives me enough dmwaters..  
23:43 <@cshields> ;)
23:44 **** dmwaters cries
23:44 <@cshields> so..  going to the chat log..  who has access to chanserv to mess with other ppl's ops?!
23:44 <@plasmaroo> Other ops.
23:44 <@dmwaters> i do
23:44 <@plasmaroo> AFAIK.
23:44 <@cshields> last I tried, I could only perform ops on myself via chanserv
23:44 <@plasmaroo> Although it depends on access level
23:44 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: -o cshields by Astinus
23:45 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o cshields by ChanServ
23:45 <@jhuebel> I can.
23:45 <@jhuebel> Well, on -dev, anyway.
23:45 <@Astinus> that was the kind of shizzle
23:45 <@plasmaroo> Astinus: No, not like that.
23:45 <@plasmaroo> -o by ChanServ
23:45 <@cshields> Astinus: that was through you, not chanserv
23:45 <@Astinus> ah hmmm
23:45 <@jhuebel> Not here, yet.
23:45 <@dmwaters> cshields: through chanserv not many
23:45 <@dmwaters> cshields: i don't think, anyway
23:45 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  easy way to tell (perhaps) -- how much does services log?
23:45 <@plasmaroo> Enough.
23:46 <@plasmaroo> Enough for me to get the culprit.
23:46 <@dmwaters> Astinus: enough to have incriminated ciaranm 50000 times over.
23:46 <@plasmaroo> Yeah, that.
23:46 **** Astinus points out deedra probably has direct services access to all logs.
23:46 <@plasmaroo> Mhm :)
23:46 <@Astinus> grep ciaranm
23:46 <@Astinus> lol
23:46 <@cshields> so..   ciaranm has chanserv access in #-dev?!
23:46 <@plasmaroo> Yes.
23:46 <@cshields> whoa..  
23:46 **** cshields scratches his head
23:46 <@dmwaters> cshields: it's confusing
23:47 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 286 20    ciaranm                             2d 18h 24m 9s
23:47 <@dmwaters> cshields: but for some reason, people can op and deop others in dev through chanserv.
23:47 <@Astinus> Standard developer access, nothing special.
23:47 <@plasmaroo> Yeah, ChanServ just has uh, nice features.
23:47 <@Astinus> plasmaroo:  Sometimes they work, sometimes they dont, hehehe
23:47 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
23:48 <@dmwaters> i'll be in and out, gonna find some food before i start snacking on the desk:)
23:48 :::: jhuebel!~[e-mail] has quit: Remote closed the connection
23:50 :::: jhuebel!~[e-mail] has joined #gentoo-devrel
23:50 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o jhuebel by ChanServ
23:50 <@dostrow_work> according to chanserv the following people have greater or equal to level 30
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      66  30    rac                                 6d 19h 47m 17s
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      74  30    slarti]                             1h 32m 4s
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      106 30    SeJo                                7h 53s
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      114 30    eradicator                          3h 8m 57s
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      126 30    dmwaters                            1w 3d 9h 4m 26s
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      170 30    iggy|work                           1d 6h 19m 12s
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      202 30    Weeve                               1w 1d 19h 19s
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      218 40    drobbins                            1d 1h 57m 29s
23:50 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      236 30    Cybersystem                         1w 3d 9h 4m 26s
23:51 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      243 30    avenj                               5d 22h 45m 48s
23:51 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      246 30    klieber                             1w 3d 9h 4m 26s
23:51 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      256 30    liquidx                             1w 1d 5h 22m 39s
23:51 <@plasmaroo> Why does drobbins have 40?
23:51 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      266 40    seemant|zZzZzZ                      2d 18h 25m 36s
23:51 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      270 30    Obz                                 2d 14h 20m 57s
23:51 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      273 30    spyderous                           1d 3h 28m 51s
23:51 <@dostrow_work> May 06 18:45:53 -ChanServ-      297 30    jhuebel                             8m 30s
23:51 <@dostrow_work> and g2boojum has 25
23:51 <@dmwaters> wow that needs to be cleaned up.
23:51 <@dostrow_work> other than that it's al 20's and 9's
23:51 <@cshields> heh
23:52 <@dmwaters> dostrow_work: can you email me that?
23:52 <@dostrow_work> I'll e-mail you a full list and that too
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- -- Access Levels for [#gentoo-dev] --
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- Index Level Type      Description
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- ----- ----- ----      -----------
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 1     -1    AUTODEOP  Automatic deop/devoice
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 2     9     AUTOVOICE Automatic voice
23:52 < cybersystem> hmm i have op? :)
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 3     14    CMDVOICE  Use of command VOICE
23:52 :::: cybersystem![e-mail] has left #gentoo-devrel: 
23:52 :::: cybersystem![e-mail] has joined #gentoo-devrel
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 4     30    ACCESS    Allow ACCESS modification
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 5     5     CMDINVITE Use of command INVITE
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 6     20    AUTOOP    Automatic op
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 7     15    CMDOP     Use of command OP
23:52 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 8     10    CMDUNBAN  Use of command UNBAN
23:53 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 9     15    AUTOKICK  Allow AKICK modification
23:53 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 10    20    CMDCLEAR  Use of command CLEAR
23:53 <@jhuebel> Shouldn't it be 20's an 8's?
23:53 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 11    25    SET       Modify channel SETs
23:53 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 14    10    TOPIC     Change the channel topic
23:53 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- 15    50    LEVEL     Use of command LEVEL
23:53 <@Astinus> -ChanServ- -- End of list --
23:53 <@Astinus> So erm, anyone can use chanserv to monkey with ops
23:53 <@dostrow_work>  30    ACCESS
23:53 <@jhuebel> Although, I guess there's really no difference between 8 and 9.
23:53 <@dmwaters> so, if we change the access level, it'll fix ciaranm there.
23:53 <@dostrow_work> that is the level to change the access list
23:53 < cybersystem> ah, thats -dev
23:53 <@jhuebel> Huh, that's off.
23:53 <@jhuebel> I though 8 was autovoice.
23:54 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  ciaran is 20, he shouldn't have access :-/
23:54 <@dostrow_work> nope 9
23:54 <@plasmaroo> CMDOP << Change to 30
23:54 <@plasmaroo> Problem solved.
23:54 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: you changed it?
23:54 <@dostrow_work> indeed
23:54 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I can't.
23:54 **** dmwaters will
23:54 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I don't have uh, magic voodoo.
23:54 :::: eradicator|spc!~[e-mail] has quit: "Leaving"
23:54 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: You stole it all!
23:54 <@dostrow_work> only those who have level 50 or channel owners can
23:54 <@Astinus> or dmwaters
23:55 <@dostrow_work> or dmwaters
23:55 <@dmwaters> hehe
23:55 **** Astinus snickers.
23:55 **** dostrow_work hrmmms
23:55 <@dmwaters> -~ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- The level required for [CMDOP] has been changed
23:55 <@dmwaters>           to 30 on #gentoo-dev
23:55 <@plasmaroo> Decent.
23:55 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Cookie
23:56 <@dostrow_work> Astinus: well that's cuz dmwaters is the channel contact ;)
23:56 <@Astinus> Okay, so now ciaran can't monkey with /msg chanserv op #gentoo-dev -targetDev
23:56 <@cshields> great.  first problem solved
23:56 <@Astinus> dostrow_work:  ahhh, I'm used to seeing avenj as channel contact everywhere
23:56 <@dmwaters> of course this now makes it harder to track his behavior
23:56 < cybersystem> err, what was the reason for changing that to 30? everybody with op can still use "/op someguy"
23:56 <@plasmaroo> Everybody with /op is ok.
23:56 <@Astinus> cybersystem:  yeah, but if they're doing that, its logged by about 200 devs
23:57 <@cshields> dmwaters: no, it just makes it more obvious when he deops someone
23:57 <@plasmaroo> If they monkey, they get my big pointy stick.
23:57 <@Astinus> cybersystem:  If its chanserv, ciaran does sly things and its not logged by 200 devs :)
23:57 <@dmwaters> cshields: true
23:57 < cybersystem> oh well..
23:57 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: my stick, if he does it again, he loses his access in -dev
23:57 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Mhm.
23:57 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I know.
23:57 <@dmwaters> though at this point donnie is right suspention might be better
23:58 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  thanks for fwding my email, didn't check who it was replying to
23:59 <@dmwaters> Astinus: heh
00:00 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  having all kinds of email issues lately, most of which can be blamed on an evil device called 'Outlook'
00:00 <@avenj> ciaran needs something to wake him up to the fact that eventually he is going to get screwed
00:00 <@avenj> and not in the sense in that he needs
00:00 <@avenj> -in
00:00 <@plasmaroo> Hahaha.
00:00 <@Astinus> avenj: I'd suggest a baseball bat, but I think we need more tact :)
00:00 **** avenj has been awake for a couple days and is slowly reaching incoherency
00:00 <@dmwaters> avenj: go to bed
00:00 <@dmwaters> :)
00:01 <@avenj> yeah, in a couple minutes
00:01 <@plasmaroo> Incoherency is nothing, insanity is better.
00:01 <@Astinus> 'couple of days' -- that worries me dude, even caffeine enhanced devs shouldn't do 48+ hour stints
00:01 <@avenj> plasmaroo: i get there around three or four days
00:01 <@dmwaters> Astinus: i did a couple of those last term
00:01 <@plasmaroo> avenj: ;)
00:01 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: you have mail
00:01 <@avenj> Astinus: i do this kind of thing on a regular basis
00:02 :::: jhuebel!~[e-mail] has quit: Remote closed the connection
00:02 <@Astinus> avenj:  scary :P
00:02 **** avenj has had an ongoing argument with sleep for a long time
00:02 <@dmwaters> Astinus: i remember one in particular because i almost crashed in a staff meeting i was supposed to lead:/
00:02 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  heheh :)
00:03 :::: jhuebel!~[e-mail] has joined #gentoo-devrel
00:03 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o jhuebel by ChanServ
00:04 <@Astinus> jhuebel:  intermittent connection?
00:05 <@jhuebel> Astinus: Trying out Konversation. Doesn't appear to be as forgiving of slow links.
00:05 <@Astinus> ahhh
00:05 <@avenj> dmwaters: when i take the caffeine binge route, i do it right.. pop nodoz until i feel like i've cooked my neurotransmitters, then crash :P
00:05 <@Astinus> anyone know who added me to [e-mail]?
00:05 <@avenj> wasn't me
00:06 <@plasmaroo> Nope.
00:06 <@avenj> 8)
00:06 <@Astinus> I just started getting hit with QA email today
00:06 **** plasmaroo looks at seemant.
00:06 <@Astinus> I swear you guys are trying to kill my feeble Outlook
00:06 <@avenj> outlook eh
00:06 **** Astinus thwaps Microshit garbage.
00:06 <@avenj> poor guy
00:06 <@Astinus> aye
00:06 **** avenj hugs mutt
00:06 <@Astinus> I've been trying to make it sensibly filter spam and do GPG signing
00:06 **** plasmaroo hugs a nice spam-fed mozzie.
00:07 <@avenj> procmail+spamass+mutt makes me happy
00:07 **** jhuebel needs Seive installed on his personal server
00:07 <@cshields> so..  who is his "manager"..  we got in trouble last time by not including said person
00:07 <@cshields> oh, and his mentor..
00:08 <@plasmaroo> Weeve... even though Ciaran mentioned something about him not exactly being his 'manager'.
00:08 <@dmwaters> cshields: weve is hismanager, his mentor doesn't vouch for him any more
00:08 <@dmwaters> cshields: mentor is only responsible for the first 60 days
00:08 <@jhuebel> Says a lot which your mentor doesn't want to have anything to do with you.
00:08 <@avenj> heh doubt weeve would/could do anything useful with ciaran anyway
00:08 <@jhuebel> :-/
00:08 **** Astinus hugs plasmaroo.
00:08 <@plasmaroo> BTW.
00:09 <@plasmaroo> I've spoken to Weeve uh, in February
00:09 <@plasmaroo> And he spoke to Ciaran.
00:09 <@plasmaroo> About similar issues.
00:09 <@cshields> ok..   I agree weeve may not do much good, but it's proper that we go through that route and consult with him
00:09 <@cshields> (may not do much good as far as ciaranm's behavior..)
00:09 <@dmwaters> cshields: he's cc'd on the bug
00:10 <@cshields> dmwaters: last update on the bug was 7 months ago
00:10 <@dmwaters> cshields: plasmaroo has talked to him in the past i believe but i dunno if the bug is updated.
00:10 <@dmwaters> time for an update, then...
00:10 <@cshields> like I said in the email, all of this recent stuff needs to be added
00:10 <@dmwaters> anyone with good copy/paste skills want to di it?
00:11 <@Astinus> I do actually have a query ...
00:11 <@Astinus> bugs used to be devrel restricted product, but were opened for transparency
00:11 <@plasmaroo> Only when they can be.
00:11 <@Astinus> But ... in the case of things like ciaranms bug, which .. ends up with all this, do we want transparency?
00:11 <@cshields> nope.. access denied on that one
00:11 **** Astinus nods.
00:12 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: avenj: jhuebel: cshields: one of you want to do it?
00:12 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Do what?
00:12 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: would be best
00:12 <@cshields> weeve seems to be online..  should we bring him in or update the bug first?
00:12 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: update the hell out of the bug.
00:12 **** Astinus hands plasmaroo the flamethrower.
00:12 <@dmwaters> cshields: bring him in and update the bug while we talk to him.
00:12 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Hrm, I'll need to parse what I've got stored and the rest in my memory banks.
00:13 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: agreed.
00:13 :::: Weeve![e-mail] has joined #gentoo-devrel
00:13 <@dmwaters> Weeve: hi
00:13 < Weeve> howdy
00:13 <@cshields> Everyone, it's Weeve!   Hey Weeve, thanks for joining me on the show today..
00:13 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
00:13 <@cshields> For today's episode, we have a recurring skit called "Ciaranm"
00:13 < Weeve> Thanks cshields, it's great to be here
00:13 <@plasmaroo> Um, anyway, I spoke to Weeve a while ago (sometime in February I believe) regarding Ciaran.
00:14 <@plasmaroo> ... who in turn spoke to Ciaran.
00:14 **** Astinus claps cshields.
00:14 <@plasmaroo> Now, we're still having recurring complaints regarding his behaviour.
00:15 <@plasmaroo> From both forums, -core rants and IRC.
00:15 <@dmwaters> they're also becoming highly frequent
00:15 < Weeve> actually that's 3 things ;)
00:15 <@plasmaroo> Right.
00:15 <@dmwaters> as in 2 or 3 a day.
00:15 <@cshields> eh..  work irq.. brb
00:15 <@dostrow_work> it's getting alarming really
00:15 <@jhuebel> Honestly, it's becoming very difficult to shrug off at this point.
00:15 < Weeve> complaints that people don't like the way he presents himself or ways that go against policy?
00:16 <@cshields> (the recent opping/deopping/banning has been against policy)
00:16 <@plasmaroo> Mainly the first... but could be argued both ways for the latter too.
00:16 <@plasmaroo> Yeah, IRC deopping mojo is against policy.
00:16 <@cshields> we need to write a policy that says "don't be an asshole" to cover the rest
00:16 <@dmwaters> how he's treating other devs, how he's acting on forums, and how he's acting in mail, the problem is that he's right on that line if  not on the verge of edging over it
00:16 <@plasmaroo> cshields: We have one.
00:16 <@plasmaroo> cshields: devrel.gentoo.org/handbook/handbook.xml and read up on etiquette
00:16 <@dmwaters> Weeve: deopping people in -dev because he doesn't like what they do, etc etc etc
00:17 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: Cummulatively, he's way over the line.
00:17 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: agreed.
00:17 <@plasmaroo> cshields: BTW, what do you mean by "official"?
00:17 <@dmwaters> the edicate guideline isn't meant to be policy, it's meant to be a set of guidelines, but he's going too far on a constant basis now, and when we try to suggest things to him, he gets ugly
00:17 <@plasmaroo> There's no official-ness.
00:17 <@jhuebel> I didn't realize it had become so frequent. Frankly, I had tuned him out, mostly.  But if it's once ever few days now. That's over the line in my opinion.
00:18 <@plasmaroo> Somebody gets talked to from/via DevRel/Ombudsman or not.
00:18 <@dostrow_work> Weeve: on the public presentations side of things we got a complaint a short time ago about his conduct on the forums, he went as far as to call the forums mods nazis
00:18 <@plasmaroo> The complaint was from a forum mod, can I add.
00:18 <@cshields> plasmaroo: just something that can be used as "evidence" per se
00:18 <@plasmaroo> Who was also blamed for 'lacking journalistic integrity' (the mod)
00:18 <@jhuebel> plasmaroo: Abuse of fellow devs is just as bad as abuse of the public.
00:18 <@dostrow_work> avenj just went through the trouble of talking to him two days ago and nothing good has come of it
00:18 <@dmwaters> Weeve: what makes it worse, is that i think we're gonna start losing devs if he keeps it up
00:18 <@cshields> plasmaroo: a concrete "warning" versus "oh, I was just talked to, that doesn't count"
00:19 <@plasmaroo> cshields: Yeah, I might have something.
00:19 <@avenj> the nazi complaint was from ian (strangely enough a german found 'nazi' offensive..), the GWN thing was from plate
00:19 <@avenj> (fyi)
00:19 <@avenj> different incidents
00:19 <@avenj> different folk
00:19 <@dostrow_work> same inappropriate behaviour from the same dev
00:19 <@cshields> those are 2 that I'm not aware of  :)
00:20 < Weeve> plasmaroo: also I noticed that nothing happened wrt the last time we talked about this, even though you said devrel was going to take action.  also he doesn't believe you have the capacity to do what you say you can do nor does he believe that devrel has any sense of follow-through
00:20 <@jhuebel> Well, regardless whether someone found something offensive or not... If ciaranm was trying to pick a fight, it's wrong.
00:20 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: I talked to Deedra and she said just leave it.
00:20 <@avenj> Weeve: that's probably because i've been sticking my neck out for him for too long
00:20 <@dmwaters> Weeve: i told him to leave it, if he did it again, we'd do something. in terms of deopping
00:21 <@avenj> he's had more than his fair share of chances, all these small things that've come up i pretty much poo-poo'd and now i regret it
00:21 <@dmwaters> Weeve: there'a slso the fact that devrel members agree that just yanking his irc access would only piss him off and it'd be bad
00:21 <@Astinus> I've seen a few users openly discussing his behaviour in #gentoo. It's dragging down the reputation of Gentoo, especially that little forum marathon
00:21 < Weeve> plasmaroo: see, that's probably not going to help since I think both you and I told him what was to happen.  So his behavior aside, how does that build confidence in devrel?
00:21 <@jhuebel> If ciaranm has been deopping devs, I think he should be dropped to autovoice, at the very least.
00:21 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: Nod, but I'm just the mediator here (and was at the time)
00:21 < Weeve> jhuebel: that was what I was told was going to happen in February
00:21 <@plasmaroo> Imposing action is up to the lead and/or DevRel as a collective group of people.
00:22 <@jhuebel> Weeve: Ah. I was on hiatus at the time.
00:22 <@dmwaters> Weeve: the reason i said wait is because he'd never been warned.
00:22 <@jhuebel> Well, he has now.
00:22 <@dmwaters> Weeve: is it right to yank someone's access if they've never had a warning?
00:22 <@dmwaters> Weeve: i've always believed in giving people warnings.
00:22 < Weeve> dmwaters: there was no talk of access restriction that I was informed of
00:22 <@avenj> let's face it, if devrel's heavy-handed ciaran's going to claim devrel's a bunch of fascist pigs with no right to push people around
00:23 < Weeve> dmwaters: just not giving him ops as a probation/warning
00:23 <@dmwaters> Weeve: access i meant irc, sorry
00:23 <@avenj> if devrel's nice, ciaran claims we're a bunch of pussies who won't touch him
00:23 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  Further to my email, I don't think DevRel is going too far to issue a concrete formal warning now and clearly state one more piece of trash and he's liable to suspension ...
00:23 <@avenj> so 'confidence in devrel' is pretty moot honestly
00:23 <@jhuebel> avenj: But if we aren't decisive, he'll keep being an asshole.
00:23 <@avenj> jhuebel: yep
00:23 < Weeve> dmwaters: if that was discussed by devrel, it never made its way to me
00:23 <@jhuebel> lose-lose, basically.
00:23 <@avenj> jhuebel: usually is
00:23 <@Astinus> Weeve:  'Tis why you were asked to drop by tonight 8) General update time.
00:23 <@plasmaroo> Quote from too long ago, something like <ciaranm> I don't recognise your authority or DevRel's authority to do that
00:23 <@dmwaters> Weeve: a lot of what's happened has been in the past couple of weeks
00:23 <@jhuebel> avenj: Nature of the beast.
00:23 < Weeve> avenj: I agree with you there, but as an in general principle...
00:24 <@dmwaters> Weeve: the thing is that if you put the whole picture together past and present, it looks really really bad
00:24 <@dmwaters> Weeve: we're bring you into it now because we're being forced to do something about it because it's going too far
00:24 <@dostrow_work> and it's starting to become public
00:24 <@cshields> well, this is why I brought up the question of an "official" warning.  If there was not one given (with his manager involved) that stated what would happen if his actions did not change, then that is the step we should be at right now
00:25 <@plasmaroo> There was one, as that's what Weeve says he cautioned him with.
00:25 <@jhuebel> BRB
00:25 <@cshields> ok, it seemed to me otherwise..  but I'm also only half-here  :)
00:25 <@plasmaroo> Sometime in February if my memory is working.
00:25 <@Astinus> plasmaroo:  During that warning, what was he threatened with should it continue?
00:25 <@plasmaroo> Revoked ops in IRC channels.
00:25 < Weeve> ok, as we got about 6 people talking at once faster than my poor brain can read, gimme a second or 3 to catch up
00:25 **** Astinus smiles.
00:25 <@dmwaters> hold!:)
00:26 <@dmwaters> don't move!:)
00:26 **** plasmaroo freezes
00:26 **** Astinus acts like a rabbit caught in the headlights.
00:26 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
00:26 <@dostrow_work> dmwaters: although in this particualr instance patrick was no better in the end imho, lance was right he could have stopped it at any time
00:26 <@plasmaroo> dostrow_work: Agreed.
00:26 <@dostrow_work> that wasn't to Weeve so it was ok...........
00:27 <@dmwaters> patrick is also walking a similar line, but the difference is that he does listen when we suggest things
00:27 <@cshields> dostrow_work: this has been coming up before today's bout with patrick though
00:27 <@dostrow_work> cshields: for a long time indeed
00:28 :::: jhuebel is now known as jhuebel|afk
00:28 <@Astinus> cshields:  What's the official policy on censoring forum threads? :P
00:28 <@plasmaroo> Up to forum mods.
00:28 <@plasmaroo> DevRel does not touch forums.
00:28 <@dostrow_work> meh, have to go home, someone post a log of the rest of this to devrel@ please
00:28 <@plasmaroo> Unless we have something like privateMessage harassment.
00:28 <@Astinus> cshields:  Have to ask, because it -is- getting a lot more public as the days go by and it's not doing anyone favours, most certainly not Gentoo's public image
00:28 <@cshields> yeah.  forums is almost like it's own entity..  there are forum admins I've never even heard of  (which is somewhat scary)
00:28 <@avenj> or a dev flips a lid and spews off a bunch of profanity at a user or something
00:28 **** dmwaters makes plasmaroo the logger
00:28 <@plasmaroo> ... Yay.
00:29 <@cshields> Astinus: what is "it"?
00:29 <@avenj> cshields: i know most of 'em (admins at least, don't know the mods well)
00:29 <@Astinus> cshields: his little rant on forums
00:29 <@cshields> avenj: I don't spend much time in the forums either..  :)
00:29 <@dostrow_work> l8r all, soory I have to drop out on the fun
00:29 <@Astinus> plasmaroo:  Got a link handy?
00:29 <@avenj> cshields: me either
00:29 <@plasmaroo> Astinus: Link for?
00:29 <@cshields> Astinus: again, news to me, yet more fuel for the fire..  can you add them to the bug?
00:29 <@cshields> avenj: you're just more l337 than me..  I admit
00:29 <@Astinus> cshields:  erm, I'm not in the devrel product
00:29 :::: dostrow_work!~[e-mail] has quit: "Homeward bound"
00:29 < Weeve> I'd like to see the forum postings as well if possible
00:29 <@plasmaroo> One moment.
00:29 <@Astinus> hence the bug is restricted to me
00:30 <@plasmaroo> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-329544.html
00:30 <@dmwaters> avenj: can you add Astinus to devrel bugzilla group please
00:30 <@plasmaroo> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-2363515.html#2363515
00:30 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: ^^
00:30 < Weeve> plasmaroo: thanks
00:30 <@Astinus> There we go, that looks familiar
00:30 < Weeve> and if I disappear for no apparent reason, it's because of a thunderstorm
00:30 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
00:30 <@Astinus> I should point out this initially came up in #gentoo-dev shortly after it started
00:30 <@plasmaroo> Astinus: I see.
00:30 <@Astinus> Two days later, we had written complaints to [e-mail]
00:31 <@avenj> dmwaters: hopefully
00:31 <@avenj> sec
00:31 <@dmwaters> here's what i think
00:31 <@dmwaters> Weeve: feel free to comment...
00:31 <@avenj> ..also why is there a DevRel group and also a Developer Relations group?
00:31 <@avenj> somebody's smart
00:31 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
00:32 <@avenj> Astinus: you should be good
00:32 <@dmwaters> we put him on probation for 60 days. now bad thing is that he'll probably flip his lid and end up suspended
00:32 <@cshields> as long as we have backups of the tree on lark  :P
00:32 <@plasmaroo> Hahaha.
00:32 **** dmwaters groans.
00:32 <@Astinus> avenj: indeed, thanks
00:32 <@Astinus> No seriously ...
00:32 <@dmwaters> i dunno that he'd be stupid enough to take his anger out on the tree.
00:32 <@plasmaroo> BTW, I'm leaving this up to you to decide people, I've been mediating this and am not voting in your selected torture mechanism.
00:33 <@Astinus> If he did flip, that would be very bad and it's a possibility :X
00:33 <@cshields> dmwaters: I don't trust him regardless...
00:33 <@dmwaters> Weeve: ?
00:33 <@Astinus> cshields:  seconded
00:33 <@dmwaters> cshields: me either but we need to let Weeve  make that call i think
00:33 <@cshields> which begs the question why does he have access anyway?  :)
00:33 <@cshields> oh, sure, I agree there
00:33 <@cshields> I put my trust in Weeve..  anything happens, it's his fault.  he's always a good scapegoat
00:34 <@cshields> ...it's his smile...
00:34 <@Astinus> jesus, that bug is huge
00:34 <@cshields> Astinus: yeah, and that was just last year's...  heh
00:34 <@plasmaroo> Mhm.
00:34 < Weeve> plasmaroo: as for the second link, GWN has on more than one occasion published information that wasn't necessarily true.  I don't think that comment is really unjustified.  Just ask wolf about the the 2005.0 release fiasco with GWN
00:35 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: Mhm, but, that was not plate's fault or lack of journalitic integrity.
00:35 <@Astinus> Weeve:   that was resolved at the -Releng meeting afterward, there'll be a liaison in future
00:35 <@plasmaroo> On that occasion he imported somebody else's story, somebody who he believed to be genuine as he was part of mentioned team.
00:35 < Weeve> as for the first link, other than perhaps making ciaranm's posting PG-13 I don't see a problem really
00:35 < Weeve> plasmaroo: not checking up on your leads is a lack of journalistic integrity to me.
00:35 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: He did check up on leads.
00:35 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: The leads were from uh, the same team.
00:36 **** plasmaroo isn't naming anybody ...
00:36 < Weeve> plasmaroo: then why did chris get all upset about GWN publishing release dates for 2005.0 that weren't true?
00:36 <@plasmaroo> Because the person who wrote the story leaked them?
00:36 <@plasmaroo> And Chris mentioned them as estimates and the summary didn't make that clear?
00:36 <@avenj> i have not seen ciaran say very many things whose intention i disagree with
00:37 <@avenj> i often see him say them in a way that is specifically crafted to be abrasive
00:37 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: Anyway, your opinion to above from Deedra?
00:37 < Weeve> plasmaroo: so GWN published somebody's assumption as fact (which doesn't seem to be a good ethic to me)
00:38 < Weeve> plasmaroo: let me go back, I was reading the whole forum thread
00:38 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: It wasn't an assumption.
00:38 <@Astinus> I appended those two URLs to his bug, we need to correlate recent -core and IRC monkeying into an append as well
00:38 <@dmwaters> Astinus: agreed.
00:38 <@avenj> i didn't think the gwn thing was a big deal, it's just that it's one more straw, you know?
00:38 <@plasmaroo> Exactly.
00:39 <@dmwaters> Weeve: comments he makes alone aren't so horrible, it's that he keeps making them and doing things and it slowly wears people down to the point where it's not good any more
00:39 <@plasmaroo> And people get upset about the fact that it continues.
00:39 <@Astinus> I'm going to steer clear of suggesting stuff like plasmaroo, I'm too much of a newbie to know the full background here. The length of that bug truly shocked me, since I've not seen it until just now.
00:39 <@avenj> and it's not about hurt feelings on plate's end either. that's tough cookies. it's just somewhat annoying to have a dev running around badmouthing parts of gentoo for silly reasons
00:40 <@plasmaroo> Exactly.
00:40 < Weeve> is it?  Ciaranm's feelings towards Pieter have to do with the whole ppc-macos fiasco, which I feel is fairly warrented
00:40 <@plasmaroo> That's what plate was annoyed about. Our PR. Not his feelings.
00:40 <@plasmaroo> And our PR represents our whole community.
00:40 <@plasmaroo> Users, developers, everything, not just ciaran.
00:40 < Weeve> so what's this about PR now?
00:40 <@plasmaroo> Forums are public.
00:41 <@cshields> Weeve: it's not his opinions or feelings, it's the way they are executed..  He has no real beef with me, but I steer clear of #-dev just because the way he treats me on a "normal" day  -shrug-
00:41 < Weeve> so are mailing list archives and IRC but we don't police those
00:41 <@Astinus> Weeve:  good press brings us users, bad press makes us all look like ugly evil bastards
00:41 <@avenj> this is about what his intentions are, as far as i'm concerned
00:41 <@avenj> he intends to piss people off
00:41 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: We don't, people do.
00:41 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: IRC is logged by tons of people; just look at all those people without ops in #-dev.
00:41 <@avenj> he admits he intends to piss people off
00:41 <@plasmaroo> Astinus: Agreed.
00:41 <@avenj> he has told me he thinks being an ass is the best way to get results
00:41 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
00:42 <@plasmaroo> As he believes all other methods fail.
00:42 <@dmwaters> avenj: got logs to send to devrel of that one?
00:42 <@avenj> sure
00:42 <@dmwaters> send please....cc Weeve to.
00:42 <@cshields> it gets results..  it drives people away
00:42 <@dmwaters> cshields: agreed.
00:43 <@cshields> I had coworkers at my old job think twice about using gentoo on their servers after reading some of his threads, it reflects on the development community as a whole
00:43 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
00:43 <@plasmaroo> = Our PR and reputation
00:44 <@plasmaroo> ... as a distro, or even just a community.
00:44 <@cshields> and to some people that doesn't matter to them, because regardless of the reputation, Gentoo will continue to work fine for them in their basement..  Others would like to see Gentoo excel past that
00:44 <@plasmaroo> Right.
00:44 <@cshields> the hard part is bridging those 2 sides of the spectrum
00:45 <@plasmaroo> Not that, the hard part is keeping them glued together.
00:45 < Weeve> cshields: well that's an entirely different thread than what is being approached here
00:45 <@cshields> how so?  (not following you there)
00:45 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: Yes, but it all adds up.
00:45 < Weeve> cshields: the direction of gentoo vs ciaranm
00:45 <@dmwaters> Weeve: people love gentoo because of the community and how friendly people are. ciaranm is far from that. he's slowly become more and more ugly to devs and users and doesn't give a fuck
00:46 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  Agreed, people like the fact they can join #gentoo and not just be told RTFM
00:46 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
00:46 <@plasmaroo> Unlike certain other distros *cough*.
00:46 <@dmwaters> it's not about rtfm, it's how they're treated
00:46 <@cshields> does he act in #gentoo like he does in -dev?  (I'm never in #gentoo)
00:46 <@Astinus> dmwaters:  It's a finer look at the whole 'community' thing, but Ciaran does expect you to have memorized the bash manual before asking him anything
00:46 <@plasmaroo> Astinus: Don't forget Vim.
00:47 <@dmwaters> cshields: dunno can't watch it with 1100 users in it.
00:47 <@Astinus> cshields:  He's rarely in #gentoo, and I'd have no problems kicking him in the nuts for being an asshole in #gentoo
00:47 <@dmwaters> :)
00:47 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: Mail sent.
00:47 <@cshields> yeah, see, I don't mind his opinions or feelings, we all have them.  It's just his nature to force those on anyone who doesn't agree with him
00:47 < Weeve> so from all of this it seems we are at a similar point we were at in February.  We have a guide for behavior, but we want to act on it like the guide is a rulebook.   The dev in question, while not playing nice by certain people's standards is also a big contributer (vim, fluxbox and base-system notibly).
00:48 <@plasmaroo> The problem is to draw the line.
00:48 <@plasmaroo> If the benefits do not outweigh the problems, then, something is needed.
00:48 < Weeve> also this guide didn't exist when a good number of us joined, so it's hard to necessarily say its binding in any case
00:48 <@plasmaroo> And this is why we're having this discussion.
00:48 <@dmwaters> Weeve: that guide is pure common sense.
00:49 < Weeve> dmwaters: I'm not saying I disagree with the guide, but it's on very shaky ground from an enforcement standpoint
00:49 <@dmwaters> Weeve: but there is a point where the problems outway the contributions, and that's happened with him.
00:49 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
00:50 <@cshields> so where and how do we enforce the guid
00:50 < Weeve> how are we quantifying this, number of complaints vs number of commits?
00:50 <@cshields> e?
00:50 <@dmwaters> Weeve: which is why it's not policy, however when someone does what he does and openly goes against people politely trying to talk to him, and asking him to stop it becomes a problem.
00:50 <@cshields> because if we can't and don't enforce it, we might as well not have it..  :)
00:50 <@dmwaters> cshields: it's all common courtacy
00:51 < Weeve> cshields: well if its something you want to enforce, then the word guide is not what you want in its title
00:51 <@dmwaters> cshields: but if you're openly an ass, of course you're gonna get in trouble
00:51 <@plasmaroo> The etiquette policy is not rigid for a reason. It allows us to be flexible and take everything into consideration, which is what we're (tring to) do now.
00:51 <@dmwaters> maybe not right away, maybe it'll be excused but sooner or later you will
00:51 < Weeve> do we have logs of more recent de-oppings than Feb?
00:51 <@cshields> dmwaters: well, that's the question that Weeve brought up..   how do you enforce that?
00:51 <@cshields> Weeve: this past week I think it was..
00:51 <@cshields> using chanserv even
00:52 <@dmwaters> cshields: if i was constantly an ass to you or scott and didn't listen to you and argued all the time what would you do?
00:52 <@dmwaters> cshields: that's where we are not with him
00:52 <@cshields> dmwaters: you would be fired..   :)
00:52 <@dmwaters> err, now
00:52 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
00:52 < Weeve> dmwaters: well they could lock you in a closet at OSU... :-P  but Scott isn't a dev AFAIK
00:52 <@cshields> right.  and IMO we've been there with him for a year now
00:52 <@dmwaters> Weeve: they already lock me in my cube:)
00:53 <@cshields> yeah, and in the fall we're going to lock her in the machine room
00:53 <@plasmaroo> *Cough*
00:53 <@dmwaters> oooh, i can pull plugs!
00:53 < Weeve> yay, raised flooring!
00:54 <@dmwaters> Weeve: as i said it's not one single thing
00:54 < Weeve> anyway, back to the topic at hand.  I think before we can consider the ciaranm situation, we really need to have a grasp on where the proverbial line is drawn and how things in the guide could possibly be enforced or used as a way to determine "the line"
00:54 <@dmwaters> Weeve: it's all of it
00:54 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: You can't draw it. It's different for each situation, each circumstance, each environment.
00:54 <@plasmaroo> People aren't binary objects.
00:54 <@dmwaters> Weeve: here's another problem, if we dont act soon, we're gonna start losing good devs
00:55 <@cshields> yeah..
00:55 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: exactly
00:55 <@slarti> what are we summing this up all up against? ciaranm's usefulness as a developer versus his trolling?
00:55 < Weeve> plasmaroo: you're being too fine grained.  you still can have criteria like every HR department does to help determine where that line is
00:55 <@Astinus> s/trolling/idiocy
00:56 <@slarti> Astinus: ciaranm's not an idiot, but he's definitely a troll
00:56 :::: jhuebel|afk is now known as jhuebel
00:56 <@dmwaters> Weeve: it's hard to make that in this kind of comunity, we have different cultures to considder
00:56 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: HR departments have slightly different purposes.
00:56 <@plasmaroo> HR departments => prevent lawsuits interanlly
00:56 < Weeve> plasmaroo: yes they do, but this is one thing they do as well
00:56 <@cshields> Astinus: he would be a hell of an asset to Gentoo if he would just be civil towards otheres
00:56 <@plasmaroo> Us => prevent community implosion
00:56 <@Astinus> cshields:  I don't deny that ;) His recent work has been cool
00:56 <@slarti> cshields: the question is, is there any chance of that happening again?
00:56 <@plasmaroo> cshields: Right, and the issue is that he isn't.
00:57 < Weeve> so what's the devrel policy on offenders?  first time is a warning, second time probation, third time a boot to the booty?
00:57 <@cshields> depends on the probation
00:58 <@plasmaroo> Varies with case, but yeah.
00:58 <@cshields> some people leave at that point
00:58 <@slarti> right.
00:58 <@plasmaroo> You can't generalize really.
00:58 <@dmwaters> Weeve: wearning probation suspention termination
00:58 < Weeve> how many cases have we had to deal with situations like this before?
00:58 <@plasmaroo> Varies. Depending on what initially caused the termination, what happens during the suspension; whether the suspension actually worked.
00:58 <@dmwaters> Weeve: that's general.c iaranm has received lots of warnings so i'm saying probation
00:58 <@avenj> policy says: Disciplinary action must be decided on a case-by-case basis by the developer relations leads. For the majority of situations requiring disciplinary action, a warning is enough to correct future behavior. If behavior does not improve, a probationary period with revoked access to Gentoo infrastructure of two weeks to one month is appropriate. If upon restoration of access negative behavior re-occurs, removal from the project
00:58 <@avenj> ll be necessary. In extreme cases, suspension or removal may be necessary upon a single offense. This is left to the discretion of developer relations leads.
00:58 <@plasmaroo> At least one, if not several.
00:58 <@avenj> oops, sorry, didn't know that'd be such a big paste
00:59 < Weeve> dmwaters: warnings from who?  I was proxy to a warning from devrel, but to me that's not the same thing.
00:59 <@slarti> the problem I have is that ciaranm is a really good developer, but his antics at the moment are just too much. I fear giving him anything more than a warning will force him to quit, and that may have other effects
00:59 <@plasmaroo> He's already been given warnings.
00:59 <@slarti> I mean, a reall good developer if you exclude all the trolling and bad press
00:59 <@slarti> plasmaroo: "anything more than a warning"
00:59 < Weeve> plasmaroo: when and by who?  are they documented anywhere?
00:59 <@plasmaroo> slarti: Nod.
00:59 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: When? One by you as a proxy, avenj, and me.
01:00 <@plasmaroo> And possibly dmwaters.
01:00 <@dmwaters> i believe seemant may have talked to him about his behavior to
01:00 <@plasmaroo> Correct.
01:00 <@plasmaroo> That too.
01:00 <@plasmaroo> See bug.
01:00 <@dmwaters> nah, not me, he ignores me
01:00 <@cshields> I think we should issue a concrete warning..   one that we state the wrongdoings and what will happen if it doesn't change.   The previous warnings are what are "sketchy" and where the line is missing..
01:00 **** slarti nods
01:00 **** jhuebel nods.
01:00 < Weeve> when given by devrel people, was it clearly communicated in a "officialish" way rather than say as a friend or anything that might not be interpreted as a warning?
01:01 <@plasmaroo> Um, yeah.
01:01 <@cshields> Weeve: that's what my question about them was..
01:01 <@dmwaters> i still say solid probation, we don't have to revoke his infra access but if we get any more complaints, he's suspended for 30 days.
01:01 <@avenj> not sure when the last time i officially warned him was
01:01 < Weeve> cshields: yeah, I type slow ;)
01:01 <@Astinus> dmwaters++
01:01 <@cshields> ok, so what would be the difference between my suggestion of a warning with ramifications, and a "probation"?
01:01 <@plasmaroo> Warnings with ramifications already given.
01:02 <@plasmaroo> Namely, <continuation of IRC issues and "lose your op"> warning was given.
01:02 <@cshields> when and what were those ramifications?  because those are what we need to act on now..
01:02 <@Astinus> cshields:  He's already had warnings, if he gets another one he'll just laugh at the 'devrel pussies'
01:02 <@slarti> I've got a feeling that a suspension for a month is as good as kicking him off.
01:02 <@cshields> ohh..  ok
01:02 <@slarti> I mean, he won't hang around.
01:02 <@dmwaters> cshields: the way i've always done warnings is basically that "straighten up or else something bad will happen" sort of thing where as with him we've got to be specific to get the point across.
01:02 <@plasmaroo> Secondly, when I did talk to him he basically said I or DevRel have no authority ... so uh; giving warnings /means nothing to him/.
01:02 <@cshields> Weeve: were you aware of the irc warning with ramification?
01:02 <@slarti> dmwaters: the point gets across, he just won't take heed
01:03 <@dmwaters> cshields: remember, in his eyes we're pathetic, he won't listen even with the official warning
01:03 <@jhuebel> We've warned him about seperate things.
01:03 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Right.
01:03 <@plasmaroo> jhuebel: That too.
01:03 <@jhuebel> There needs to be one unified warning.
01:03 <@plasmaroo> Won't work.
01:03 <@cshields> dmwaters: I know, but in everyone else's eyes we have to do what's proper, so that if it did ever reach the end we've done what was right
01:03 < Weeve> so the warning I gave him along with the "punishment" of lack of ops was never followed up on, and if ciaranm wasn't told of the change of decision, then that to me doesn't look good
01:03 <@slarti> I've got a feeling he would listen a lot harder to an inofficial warning than to an official warning
01:03 <@cshields> Weeve: agreed..  so we're a step behind then
01:03 <@avenj> slarti: tried that
01:03 <@plasmaroo> slarti: The inofficial warning was intended to be Weeve talking to him.
01:04 <@plasmaroo> (and avenj)
01:04 <@jhuebel> (and others)
01:04 <@slarti> inofficial doesn't imply relaxed, does it?
01:04 <@plasmaroo> No, it doesn't.
01:04 < Weeve> it means it wasn't made by someone from devrel
01:04 <@slarti> I mean, how stern was the warning?
01:04 <@plasmaroo> See devrel mail
01:04 <@plasmaroo> avenj sent his log.
01:04 <@avenj> slarti: read the log i just sent to devrel. i messaged him and told him all devrel issues aside he's screwing himself over
01:04 **** slarti hopes procmail hasn't screwed up again with error handling
01:05 <@dmwaters> Weeve: well, all i can say is that plasmaroo's threat wasn't agreed to by avenj or i, so it's not considdered official action
01:05 < Weeve> ok, then you guys really need to get it together on that
01:05 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Hrm?
01:05 < Weeve> (not trying to be snippy or anything)
01:05 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: You said to speak to him, but then said to not bother with any action.
01:06 <@plasmaroo> And leave it until the next time.
01:06 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: that's what i said. yes, i didn't mean  say "you're losing your access"
01:06 <@plasmaroo> Basically folks, we need to do something, and appeasement won't work this time.
01:06 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Ah.
01:06 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: ombudsman needs to stay nutral when they talk to people.
01:06 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I know.
01:07 < Weeve> it should also be clear that they are talking in that capacity too
01:07 <@plasmaroo> Right.
01:07 <@dmwaters> Weeve: nods.
01:07 <@plasmaroo> And I've clearly mentioned that to him when I was talking in that capacity.
01:07 <@plasmaroo> When I wasn't, I was talking on behalf of DevRel.
01:07 < Weeve> because if when plasmaroo was talking to me in February was in the ombudsman capacity, that was not clear to me
01:08 <@cshields> ok, so let's issue the official warning and make clear 1) what the wrongdoings are, 2) ask him to accept the warning and change  3) outline the next step (punishments) if things do not change
01:08 <@dmwaters> if things don't change, he will be suspended..
01:08 <@dmwaters> if we keep getting complaints, he will be suspended.
01:08 <@cshields> that's fine..   but he needs to have an official warning that states as such
01:08 <@dmwaters> agreed.
01:08 <@cshields> Weeve: do you agree there?
01:08 <@iggy> I can kind of sympathize with the way he sees devrel
01:08 <@avenj> iggy: me too
01:08 <@plasmaroo> Yup.
01:08 <@cshields> I do too, which is why I want to do this right
01:09 <@dmwaters> iggy: that makes 3
01:09 <@iggy> even as a member I find it impossible to get rid of people who have no business being a gentoo developer
01:09 **** plasmaroo abstains.
01:09 < Weeve> also he never sees where devrel was granted the capacity to do what it thinks it can do by drobbins or anything else that may compromise a ruling body since drobbins left
01:09 <@plasmaroo> Yeah, he's mentioned that when I was talking to him in ombudsman capacity.
01:10 < Weeve> which is why he doesn't take you seriously and tears you apart any time he can
01:10 <@plasmaroo> Right.
01:10 <@plasmaroo> Just like he did when I talked to him in non-Ombudsman capacity.
01:10 <@dmwaters> Weeve: he's stuck back in the drobbins era, and that can't stay that way.
01:10 <@cshields> Weeve: that is why we have to get the managers involved
01:10 <@cshields> realistically, it's your call
01:11 < Weeve> dmwaters: he has a point, I don't recall where devrel was given the authority it thinks it has either
01:11 <@cshields> but, if you feel that everything he does is legit and we don't need to bother with him, then the complaints we get can be forwarded to you   :)
01:11 <@avenj> drobbins did that
01:11 <@dmwaters> however....
01:11 <@avenj> devrel grew out of what was basically me and seemant recruiting and me, seemant, and drobbins making personnel decisions
01:11 <@cshields> avenj: can you back that up?  that would clear a lot of problems we've had  :)
01:11 <@Astinus> cshields:  planning to install a new mailserver are we? 8)
01:12 <@iggy> indeed he did, I was outraged at first, I pictured a bunch of dev-nazis
01:12 <@dmwaters> sooner or later there will come a point when we can't keep dealing with those complaints, and we will have to do something, and that will have to be soon
01:12 <@avenj> cshields: most of this was over irc and in emails i no longer have
01:12 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Right, hence me saying we kinda can't keep on with the appeasement.
01:12 <@avenj> cshields: so now for the most part if you want it backed up you're gonna have to plug a serial cable into one of our brains
01:12 <@avenj> unless someone else is a packrat
01:13 <@dmwaters> i am but this was before i was braught on
01:13 <@slarti> meh, can't keep my eyes open. 'night
01:13 < Weeve> later slarti 
01:13 <@plasmaroo> Night Tom.
01:13 <@slarti> hope things go according to plan
01:13 <@dmwaters> avenj: msg please:)
01:13 <@cshields> there is no plan  :)
01:13 <@avenj> oops, sorry
01:14 <@cshields> Weeve: you seem real impartial here..  what would you have us do?  We get a constant stream of complaints about him.  Whether or not we have authority to do something, people are looking for something to be done.
01:14 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
01:15 < Weeve> so basically what I'm seeing here is that devrel was supposedly given the autonomy it believes it has in a non-public way, is that correct?
01:15 <@dmwaters> Weeve: i will also add that people are starting to hate us because w won't do something.
01:15 <@avenj> i wouldn't say it was non-public
01:15 <@avenj> but when the current management structure evolved 'seemant, drobbins, and avenj' turned into 'devrel'
01:15 <@avenj> and that was just accepted as how things were
01:15 <@plasmaroo> Yep.
01:16 <@plasmaroo> And everybody was happy...
01:16 <@avenj> before that we were enforcing even looser "policy" with much less transparency and input
01:16 < Weeve> cshields: I think the action you're proposing (formal warning with knowledge of what's to come if he stays the way he is) is fair, but I'm just trying to make sure I'm not selling him short first either
01:16 <@avenj> and somehow less bitching, but i don't know how that happened
01:16 <@avenj> =P
01:16 <@plasmaroo> avenj: Neither do I, but it just did.
01:16 <@avenj> actually, yes i do, people just weren't rude to each other
01:16 <@cshields> Weeve: right.  which is why we involve you.  Ideally, a dev's manager should be able to say "shape up" and then the dev shapes up.
01:16 <@avenj> when they were it was either foser or a new dev :P
01:17 <@iggy> selling him short? we've all kissed his ass and told how good of a dev he is, but he needs to tune it down a little, he refuses, even when non-devrel people try to reason with him, he takes the same tact
01:17 < Weeve> cshields: well ciaranm's current development paths place him less and less under my "juristiction" as it were
01:17 <@plasmaroo> So then whose juridsiction is he in?
01:17 <@plasmaroo> DevRel's?
01:17 <@plasmaroo> Nobody's?
01:17 <@avenj> so you're saying he's basically a loose cannon
01:18 <@avenj> rugged
01:18 <@plasmaroo> Yeah.
01:18 < Weeve> I'm not saying he is or isn't mine.  I'm just saying that he doesn't do as much sparc work as he used to.
01:18 <@cshields> he banned tantive from #-sparc the other day..  
01:18 <@plasmaroo> He's mentioned on multiple times to me that you "aren't his manager".
01:18 <@dmwaters> Weeve: hehe, far as we're concerned, he's still yours:)
01:19 < Weeve> which is probably a fair statement considering the only sparc stuff he does these days is related to vim or fluxbox
01:19 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
01:20 **** dmwaters nods
01:20 < Weeve> cshields: last time plasmaroo and I talked, I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong plasmaroo) that #-sparc wasn't under the same rules as #-dev
01:20 <@plasmaroo> That's what was agreed upon.
01:20 <@plasmaroo> Etiquette policy does not state #-sparc is under DevRel control.
01:20 <@plasmaroo> And it is up to the channel owner.
01:20 <@iggy> well, he has to belong to someone, does he think he reports straight to god?
01:20 <@plasmaroo> iggy: That's how some people see him.
01:21 <@iggy> I think that's how he sees himself sometimes
01:21 < Weeve> iggy: so if you have a person who works in more than one herd, say 3 or 4 with no one being the majority, then who would that dev report to or who would be his manager?
01:21 <@dmwaters> knowone
01:21 <@plasmaroo> Heh.
01:21 <@dmwaters> most devs though have a primary project
01:21 <@iggy> personally, I'd say wherever he spends most of his time
01:21 <@avenj> i'm going to get some sleep
01:21 <@iggy> in this case, maybe that's base
01:21 <@cshields> Weeve: this is based on past experience of devrel taking an action without first consulting the manager of that dev.. 
01:21 <@avenj> bbl
01:21 <@plasmaroo> Night Jon.
01:22 <@dmwaters> agreed
01:22 < Weeve> later avenj 
01:22 <@dmwaters> and if base, it'd be azarah who probably won't have any interest in dealing with it
01:22 <@cshields> Weeve: as for the channel, if that's the case then that is fine, it's just one more complaint on his stack
01:22 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
01:22 <@dmwaters> possibley seemant
01:22 <@iggy> azarah hasn't been consistently around in a few months
01:22 < Weeve> cshields: so we're marking it against him that he did something "bad" in a channel that has no rules ?
01:23 <@dmwaters> Weeve: no.
01:23 <@iggy> it's a complaint
01:23 <@iggy> not something he did wrong
01:23 <@cshields> Weeve: nope.  we can pop that complaint off the stack and the stack still overfloweth AFAIAC
01:23 <@avenj> not that he did something bad so much as it indicates aggressive behavior towards fellow developers, imo
01:23 <@plasmaroo> That's like saying "Hey, don't harass people and tell them to fsck off via /query" and then getting a complaint about it isn't "bad".
01:23 <@avenj> now i'm really gone, i swear
01:23 <@dmwaters> go to bed!
01:23 <@avenj> i'm trying, really :P
01:24 <@dmwaters> I need to call my mother before it gets to late.
01:24 <@cshields> ok, I'm suppose to be home now eating dinner..  
01:24 < Weeve> you're all leaving me!
01:24 **** Weeve sobs
01:24 <@plasmaroo> Bah, it's 1:30AM here and I'm still enjoying the fun <grin>
01:24 <@dmwaters> but, i still would like to issue a warning, and a suspention if he keeps it up
01:24 <@iggy> I'm still here, pansies
01:25 <@dmwaters> Weeve: i'm not going that far, just have to talk to mommy:)
01:25 < Weeve> it's only 6:30 here
01:25 <@cshields> anyway, my position remains as it was months ago that his bad behavior outweighs his contributions and he should be let go..  However, like I said before I think we should be proper and issue a warning clearly stating such.  If he doesn't accept it, we can act on the next step as clearly stated in the warning
01:25 <@cshields> we have done this in the past, devrel has such responsability and power despite popular opinion
01:26 <@cshields> ("popular" was probably a bad term there..  hehe)
01:26 <@plasmaroo> It's stated when people join up.
01:26 <@plasmaroo> So uh, it's their own fault if they don't notice or agree to it.
01:26 < Weeve> not when I did ;)
01:26 <@plasmaroo> Yeah, but then DevRel didn't exist ;)
01:26 <@cshields> Weeve: you're grandfathered  ')
01:26 <@cshields> ;)
01:26 < Weeve> or the dev in question for that matter
01:26 <@plasmaroo> Or that.
01:26 <@iggy> Weeve: you're too old
01:27 < Weeve> I can feel storms coming in with my bad knee...
01:27 <@plasmaroo> 2002-10-19 says plasmaroo's NostalgiaMatic <R><TM>
01:27 <@iggy> Weeve: I came in about the same time as he did, and I've known all along that devrel's role included the power to discipline
01:27 <@Astinus> recruiters:   http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88901    <<  unassigned and due in 5 days? no quizzes or something?
01:28 <@plasmaroo> Astinus: Looking.
01:28 <@plasmaroo> jhuebel: ^^
01:28 <@jhuebel> I just haven't updated it today.
01:28 <@jhuebel> It's my fault.
01:28 <@plasmaroo> Oki.
01:28 <@cshields> howdy jhuebel 
01:29 <@jhuebel> He's an "arch tester" for amd64, so he took the ebuild quiz a LONG time ago. :-)
01:29 < Weeve> iggy: I know it was designed to do, but the granting of authority to do so seems to be the more questionable point (since it was done amongst a small group of folks)
01:29 <@jhuebel> cshields: heya :-)
01:29 <@cshields> ok, I need to head home. let me know if something changes or happens
01:29 <@Astinus> jason:  Sorry, I'm just going through bug lists looking for things we can squash
01:29 <@cshields> later...    ------------------MARK------------------
01:29 <@iggy> Weeve: many other things were agreed upon between that same small group
01:30 <@jhuebel> Astinus: np, I appreciate the reminder.
01:30 < Weeve> you officially have my $0.02 to put out the warning
01:30 <@iggy> he doesn't question all those other things (at least not that I've seen)
01:30 < Weeve> iggy: such as?
01:30 <@Astinus> jason:  I dont know the policy for DocDevs, but Redhatter is due on the 20th May and still unassigned too
01:30 <@Astinus> jason: lol, you have all the recent b00gs, heh
01:30 <@plasmaroo> Weeve: Only problem now would be getting him to not shoot the warning off as something like "Oh, it's too vague" or "Oh, this is 1984".
01:31 <@plasmaroo> Or even "Oh, DevRel is playing games again"
01:31 <@iggy> Weeve: infrastructure's role, hell, pretty much every other projects role
01:31 <@iggy> it wasn't ever explicitly said/voted on that the portage project would be in charge of development of portage
01:32 <@iggy> he chooses to nullify what he doesn't agree with
01:32 <@plasmaroo> Instead of trying to understand people's POV.
01:32 <@iggy> or whom he doesn't agree with as it were
01:33 < Weeve> or maybe he feels he's already made an informed decision, doesn't feel like explaining himself, and wants the other party to look into it for themselves
01:33 <@plasmaroo> Or that.
01:34 <@plasmaroo> He's often taken that view when I've spoken to him - he doesn't believe there's any hope, and no point in explaining.
01:34 < Weeve> and trying to get people to prove him wrong will kind of lead down that path
01:34 <@plasmaroo> Nod.
01:35 <@iggy> that's his problem, not ours
01:35 <@iggy> we've tried explaining it to him in every imagineable way
01:36 <@plasmaroo> True.
01:36 <@dmwaters> alright, so jason and i will put together a warning, and send it to devrel and you weve
01:40 <@jhuebel> Sounds good.
01:41 <@jhuebel> Sorry I've been quiet.  Didn't expect a full blown meeting. I've got the kids this evening. :-/
01:41 <@Astinus> heheh, don't mind me thwapping you with work then ;)
01:42 **** jhuebel /ignore Astinus ;-)
01:42 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Tell me when to stop.
01:42 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: huh?
01:42 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: You remember, you made me the log monkey.
01:42 <@dmwaters> oh
01:42 <@plasmaroo> :p
01:42 <@dmwaters> yeah, stop
01:43 <@dmwaters> heh