irc log #gentoo-comrel

gentoo-comrel-log.txt (text/plain), 103.42 KB, created by Andreas K. Hüttel on 2015-02-22 17:58:56 UTC

[15:44:31] <wltjr> jlec: I think I am ready when ever you are, or if you want to setup a time, I would like to keep the review limited to 1 maybe 2 hours max, rather not spend 2 hours just to get half way through first quiz like my last time in quiz review, one of my 4 or 5 attempts at returning since I left...
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[16:00:06] <jlec> wltjr: hi
[16:00:22] <jlec> wltjr: we have a slight problem.
[16:00:45] <jlec> it seems you have a track record in gentoo which I was not aware of.
[16:01:52] <jlec> The other comrel members demanded some contributions from your side to judge how you are working in a team these days
[16:03:18] <jlec> "I would like to keep the review limited to 1 maybe 2 hours max" is something which shouldn't be in there. It is not up to you to decide when we are finished.
[16:03:18] <jlec> But as you have lots of knowledge I am sure we won't have long sessions
[16:04:33] <jlec> wltjr: So I would like to ask to do contributions via the rsync2git or proxy-maint project and get involved in gentoo via bgo, irc and overlays so that the team gets confident in your returning.
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[16:05:51] <wltjr> jlec: an ebuild of mine just went into tree, I have a IPv6 patched qmail I have been running for a few months and tomcat 8 ebuild...
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[16:06:07] <wltjr> jlec: you can ask java team members... I have been porting java-config to C from python....
[16:06:17] <wltjr> jlec: what more work do you want to see?
[16:06:22] <jlec> wltjr: I think the social part is more important.
[16:06:32] <wltjr> jlec: I have submitted ebuilds in bugzilla, I pointed out one
[16:06:45] <wltjr> jlec: again go into #gentoo-java and talk to those I work with if you want to know
[16:06:57] <wltjr> jlec: if you want to bring up social bs, then your not actually concerned with technical contributions and the rest
[16:07:13] <wltjr> jlec: and again my track record speaks for itself, I got gentoo a bank account, redid by laws, and got it legal again
[16:07:24] <wltjr> jlec: no one else in gentoo has done that, and since then the foundation has fallen aside
[16:07:37] <wltjr> jlec: so ask yourself, do you want packages in portage updated no one has in 8 years?
[16:07:51] <wltjr> things like servletapi still remain, despite my efforst to remove in 2008...
[16:08:10] <wltjr> fine by me if gentoo does not have tomcat 8 or ipv6 support qmail, all other distros do....
[16:08:56] <jlec> All that can be contributed by rsync2git and proxy-maint project
[16:09:15] <wltjr> jlec: I got grief last time from those in devrel and I had comments about devrel going away, and where is devrel now gone, merged into comrel with userel....
[16:09:23] <jlec> Of course we like to see your contributions, but technical aspect aren't everything
[16:09:27] <wltjr> jlec: ok never mind, thanks for being the same as others
[16:09:34] <wltjr> jlec: bye
[16:10:56] <jlec> wltjr: that behaviour you are showing right now is on spot with the concerns of the team. You should start prooving the oposite.
[16:12:38] <wltjr> jlec: dude I care less you have things so twisted
[16:12:50] <wltjr> how has anyone been helpful? why should I be any different
[16:13:11] <wltjr> am I being shown respect? thanks for contributions? or willingness to do what others have not in 7+ years
[16:13:25] <wltjr> jlec: are you trying to improve gentoo or not? for real, this social crap is BS
[16:13:43] <wltjr> jlec: I have gotten that same crap for many years now, and you expect me to be any differnet?
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[16:14:04] <wltjr> jlec: you cannot bring up a single technical issue with my work then and now, if all you have to go in is social then....
[16:14:14] <wltjr> jlec: but specifically what have I done bad socially recently tell me?
[16:14:14] <jlec> wltjr: exactly that. Be different.
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[16:14:38] <jlec> wltjr: you told me how much disrepect other adn
[16:14:43] <wltjr> jlec: good luck with gentoo, gentoo needs to BE DIFFERENT
[16:14:51] <jlec> then tell me I am just like them
[16:14:53] <wltjr> jlec: fyi you have stupid questions on the quiz
[16:14:59] <jlec> that's a personal attack
[16:15:04] <wltjr> 21 on the end of ebuild quiz is stupid
[16:15:19] <jlec> let me see
[16:16:08] <wltjr> gcc needs to be modified like java, who cares what your system gcc is, if I have 4.6 4.7 and 4.8 installed, if I do depend >= gcc 4.8, then it should use that one even if I have 4.6 set
[16:16:19] <wltjr> ebuilds should NOT need to be modified, that is stupid
[16:16:38] <wltjr> eclass should handle selecting and setting the correct gcc for the environment
[16:16:56] <wltjr> that way you can have many different gcc's installed and recompile the package with each if you so choose to, just like you can with java now...
[16:17:10] <wltjr> I can have java 1.6 as my system, but compile stuff with 1.7 and 1.8
[16:17:37] <wltjr> so gentoo has kept people out with technical contributions, added stupid question to the quiz and adding code to ebuilds that should be handled in eclass logic....
[16:18:08] <wltjr> jlec: you realize I also created many official docs when I was a dev, in addition to the foundation and other htings
[16:18:19] <wltjr> jlec: what do you know about the foundation? what is its present state? where are its financials?
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[16:18:51] <wltjr> jlec: FYI social aspects were brought up in my local lug as well
[16:19:03] <wltjr> jlec: you know bill gates and steve jobbs are not nice guys socially....
[16:19:22] <jlec> wltjr: you can stop. You have proven your point.
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[16:19:27] <wltjr> jlec: social skills and tech skills tend to be at odds, recruiters in real life love me because of my social skills in business
[16:19:42] <wltjr> jlec: yes and you have prevented gentoo from technical contributions
[16:19:55] <wltjr> jlec: go look how much java stuff is not maintained, or firebird, or assp, or qmail, or other thigns....
[16:20:21] <wltjr> jlec: much less what I just pointed out about gcc and question 21 that was added in recent years rather than doing things the proper technical way
[16:20:50] <wltjr> jlec: or that I just contributed an ebuild to one of the few active java devs who was VERY thankful and committed right away to tree yesterday, there are hundreds more like that
[16:21:07] <wltjr> jlec: so once again comrel recruiting is screwing gentoo and gentoo users for what reason?
[16:21:32] <wltjr> every day less people will use gentoo, and I guess people are ok with that, heck I could go join exherbo or others arch, etc before I can join gentoo, pathetic....
[16:22:02] <wltjr> jlec: and people will listen to me outside of gentoo, because what I did for the foudnation matters more in the real world than most technical contributions.... but few realize such....
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[18:25:32] <wltjr> jlec: pretty funny and nice timing https://groups.google.com/d/msg/jaxlug/Ktvwxf6RS9Q/GRKkW11UXyYJ "People who work with computers are infamously anti-social."
[18:27:40] <wltjr> jlec: fyi my local lug fell apart i use to lead and run most of that, I was acused of doing to much it beign mylug etc, I backed off things fell apart, recently they banned me in June from posting "drama" to the list, which has since fallen silent, a not so nice post of mine recently stirred the pot and many are commenting including those that left the area I mentioned here like andrew henderson
[18:30:06] <mgorny> well, you don't have to be social really
[18:30:13] <mgorny> not that i agree with our methods
[18:30:22] <mgorny> but you have to be able to handle some basic interaction stuff
[18:30:35] <mgorny> like being able to work with others and give users consistent experience
[18:30:45] <wltjr> mgorny: seems my recruitment process has died because of social bs not anything technical or otherwise...
[18:31:00] <mgorny> it's no good when some maintainers refuse to follow a global policy because they don't like it personally
[18:31:01] <wltjr> mgorny: exactly the problem, people are not talking to peole I work with
[18:31:30] <wltjr> mgorny: even when jlec showed up in #gentoo-java, caster made a comment, I haven't worked with him in years, and he has avoided doing much, I think lost interest, busy with life, etc
[18:31:34] <mgorny> or when someone is simply an asshole and causes other devs not want to work anymore
[18:31:51] <mgorny> i didn't knwo caster is still in gentoo
[18:31:55] <mgorny> so many people retired lately
[18:32:07] <wltjr> mgorny: many cause me to hold my nose to gentoo and run away for years, I only return for users sake no developers
[18:32:26] <mgorny> yes, that's a good point
[18:32:41] <wltjr> mgorny: yes, and really not sure what he is doing in recent years, but did screwe me today with negative comments and skepticism based on things from like 2008-2011, really current stuff
[18:33:00] <mgorny> i heard people don't change ;)
[18:33:04] <wltjr> mgorny: despite that I am working on java-config in C, which is a core piece of java on gentoo, or my ebuild contributions etc
[18:33:12] <mgorny> i just get balder and more grumpy ;)
[18:33:28] <wltjr> mgorny: our core doesn't change, and I am also getting balder not so much grumpy, but less tolerant of bs
[18:33:48] <wltjr> mgorny: few years ago get in my way I might have been nicer, these days with death getting closer every day, time is of the essence... :)
[18:34:13] <wltjr> mgorny: but when people get in the way of progress I become abrasive
[18:35:42] <mgorny> well, as i said before (i think i did), i can't help you much with being recruited
[18:35:45] <mgorny> maybe encourage ;)
[18:36:00] <mgorny> but if you decide to go through pull requests, our doors are open to your commits
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[18:44:09] <wltjr> mgorny: everything is done I was ready to be processed but then bs came up, social past etc
[18:44:39] <wltjr> mgorny: could have spent the time with jlec in review today but seems it went a different direction and seems all is lost now, I doubt I will return short of a miracle now, clearly I am not wanted
[18:45:07] <mgorny> wltjr: well, you need to try to be nicer
[18:45:10] <wltjr> mgorny: pretty sure its not going to happen now, have to ask others why because I cannot say, its surely not for the good of gentoo
[18:45:17] <mgorny> a lot of burnout happening lately
[18:45:28] <wltjr> mgorny: its a two way street, I respond in kind :)
[18:45:42] <mgorny> people overreact
[18:45:43] <wltjr> mgorny: but its also insulting when people are unaware of the past and do not take any time to learn about gentoo
[18:46:02] <wltjr> mgorny: so I have to constantly prove myself to new people unware of the past
[18:46:15] <wltjr> mgorny: others won't let go of the past, and are doing very little today
[18:46:22] <mgorny> no offense but gentoo is running fast, even these days
[18:46:30] <wltjr>  
[18:46:46] <mgorny> so i guess people need to make sure you don't have some bad old habits
[18:46:48] <wltjr> mgorny: in what sense? you know how much stale and outdate stuff there is?
[18:46:54] <mgorny> i know
[18:47:02] <wltjr> mgorny: any issue people have with me they create, if they work with me and we get stuff done no issue
[18:47:04] <mgorny> but some things actually changed, eclasses, policies
[18:47:18] <wltjr> mgorny:  if that start focusing on how I am acting, bs stuff, then it creates drama and the exact problem they seek to avoid
[18:47:29] <wltjr> mgorny: its really not me creating it, its the environment
[18:47:42] <wltjr> mgorny: like casters comments today he could have been polite, nice, greeted me, but no it was just negativity
[18:47:54] <mgorny> sorry, i don't know the deails of that
[18:48:08] <wltjr> mgorny: he has not been around for the past week or so as I have been actively working and interacting with others, not to mention encouraging and supporting others to get on board
[18:48:25] <wltjr> not only will I not be a dev now, I doubt gnu_andrew will
[18:48:45] <wltjr> I was helping to motivate him... given that he works for redhat, seeing the bs time loss I go threw, why would he bother?
[18:49:09] <wltjr> I doubt gnu_andrew can say anything negative about me socially, other than what he has seen with others
[18:49:22] <wltjr> mgorny: I have never had bad interactions with anyone I work with in gentoo ever
[18:49:36] <mgorny> didn't you just have one with jlec? :)
[18:49:37] <wltjr> mgorny: the bad stuff came from others making comments not contributing things technically and that starts the bs
[18:49:45] <wltjr> mgorny: sorta, and who started that? me?
[18:49:50] <mgorny> but that's not a big problem as i see it
[18:49:53] <wltjr> mgorny: did I bring up the stuff from the past no he did after talking to others
[18:49:55] <mgorny> as long as users don't get hurt in the process
[18:50:04] <wltjr> mgorny: NONE of this ever involved users
[18:50:08] <wltjr> ever
[18:50:19] <mgorny> yes
[18:50:21] <wltjr> mgorny: when devrel banned me from -nfp list it was not users who were effected
[18:50:37] <mgorny> i'm just talking generally
[18:50:44] <mgorny> if people have problems, that can happen
[18:50:47] <wltjr> mgorny: it was 1 dev who complained, and weeks later I got a 15 day supension because I made 1 post to -nfp after I was banned
[18:50:53] <mgorny> if they stop working and retire, that's worse
[18:51:00] <wltjr> mgorny: no I get your point, this was all internal bs that just ended up hurting gentoo users
[18:51:04] <mgorny> if they run into revert wars, this definitely needs action
[18:51:08] <wltjr> mgorny: that is exactly what happened
[18:51:22] <wltjr> mgorny: I was harrassed and got so much grief I resigned from the foudnation
[18:51:31] <wltjr> then devrel pissed me off weeks later and I left as a dev
[18:52:02] <wltjr> because of things people never fully understood they have been judging my reactions and actions ever since, not realizing they are fuel to the fire they keep lighting
[18:53:40] <wltjr> mgorny: look at these it says allot I left in 2008
[18:53:42] <wltjr> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.nfp
[18:53:45] <wltjr> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.java
[18:54:06] <wltjr> this next one has nothing to do with me, but shows around 2008 bad stuff was going on that hurt gentoo development it declined
[18:54:10] <wltjr> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel
[18:54:16] <wltjr> those graphs alone say quiet allot
[18:55:31] <wltjr> mgorny: not sure if you saw this the other day https://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/finances/2010q3.xml
[18:56:48] <wltjr> mgorny: that is when the $9k went missing, and no clue why it took years for that adjustment, pretty sure we were trustees for a while before that adjustment so it should have come at the beginning
[18:57:34] <wltjr> mgorny: but check this out, go find a linux distro that does not have tomcat 8, or a ipv6 enabled version of qmail, of course gentoo has neither, and its really sad that things are more current on debian than gentoo...
[18:58:20] <wltjr> version of sun javamail from like 2009 I provided current one that fordford committed yesterday, so many java ebuilds out of date and other stuff
[18:58:50] <wltjr> most any package I maintained has been without a maintainer since 2008... 7 years... no one has taken over...
[18:58:55] <mrueg> wltjr: you're away of https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo-portage-rsync-mirror ?
[18:58:59] <mrueg> aware*
[18:59:55] <wltjr> mrueg: no, is that another proxy to tree thing like sunrise?
[19:00:04] <mrueg> wltjr: better than sunrise.
[19:00:09] <wltjr> I am not a fan of proxying, I proxy maintained things for a while through sunrise
[19:00:21] <mrueg> sunrise doesn't proxy
[19:00:23] <wltjr> I dislike anything that requires someone elses time, why take the time of 2 to do the job of 1?
[19:00:31] <mrueg> it's just a user maintained overlay.
[19:00:50] <wltjr> mrueg: I mean more in the form of user contributions, I prefer users to become devs and contribute to tree rather than overlays
[19:01:04] <mrueg> wltjr: so you think the kernel development model is bad?
[19:01:06] <wltjr> mrueg: I am not an overlay fan at all, I prefer the old package mask approach
[19:01:26] <wltjr> mrueg: what works for one project doesn't necessarily work for others
[19:01:57] <wltjr> mrueg: things going into the kernel are a bit more serious, you can put things in the gentoo tree that do not effect any other package
[19:02:14] <wltjr> few things you can do with the kernel that will not have effect on other things in the kernel or the entire kernel
[19:02:43] <wltjr> but like back in the day when I wanted to check out enlightenment I unmasked I didn't use an overlay
[19:02:55] <wltjr> vapier/spanky had it all masked, you just unmasked
[19:03:26] <wltjr> I feel that is better because its easier for people to unmask than to add an overlay etc, so tends to get more exposure and the more eyes on something the better, overlays can be overlooked and ignored if even used
[19:03:47] <mrueg> wltjr: well in kde the transition to plasma 5 made it necessary to work in an overlay
[19:04:22] <wltjr> mrueg: sure there are reasons for overlays, I am not saying they should NEVER be used, they have just been overused, and things that could be worked on in tree via p.mask tend to be done in overlays
[19:04:26] <mrueg> you don't really want to work on that with per package commits
[19:04:36] <wltjr> mrueg: toolchain changes likely should be in overlay and eclass stuff as well
[19:04:42] <wltjr> not sure  you can mask an eclass
[19:04:57] <mrueg> not really
[19:05:16] <mrueg> you can just add multiple die's ;)
[19:05:21] <wltjr> mrueg: I am just saying in general become a dev should be eaiser, more should be devs than users contributing to overlays :)
[19:05:38] <wltjr> rather than proxy commit, they should be devs and commit directly and not require anothers time to do the job of 1
[19:05:42] <wltjr> effciency
[19:05:52] <mrueg> wltjr: well your definition of developer may differ from others.
[19:06:19] <wltjr> mrueg: anyone will to contribute to making gentoo better
[19:06:26] <mrueg> I'd say we have "Trusted developers", "Developers", "Contributors" and "Users"
[19:06:27] <wltjr> mrueg: commit access :)
[19:06:40] <mrueg> trusted developers have direct access to the tree
[19:06:51] <mrueg> developers are able to proxy their commits
[19:07:09] <wltjr> mrueg: what is the difference between trusteed and devlopers? I doubt that is documented anywhere, and the foudnation I don't think has classificatinos
[19:07:20] <wltjr> anyone proxying is not a developer
[19:07:26] <wltjr> they are a contributing user
[19:07:26] <mrueg> wltjr: why not?
[19:07:32] <wltjr> because they do not have commit access
[19:07:47] <wltjr> mrueg: they are not listed as a gentoo developer on the list simple enough
[19:08:12] <wltjr> you can refer to them as what ever, but there is no official trusted vs developer, you either have commit access as a developer or you don't
[19:08:14] <mrueg> wltjr: this is my definition, not the one of gentoo ;)
[19:08:33] <wltjr> mrueg: sure many have their own, but this is covered in foudnation by laws
[19:08:41] <wltjr> mrueg: because it also effects foundation membership
[19:08:45] <mrueg> trusted devs have shown that they were capable to follow rules at a single point in time (when they submitted their quizzes)
[19:09:11] <wltjr> mrueg: that has nothing to do with anything, any issues with me have nothing to do with quizzes or my skills :)
[19:09:29] <wltjr> mrueg: allot of rules and policies in gentoo are undocumented then adn now
[19:09:59] <wltjr> mrueg: but trusted devs sometimes do harmful things as I was told someone kept breaking python and had to be dealt with
[19:10:15] <mrueg> wltjr: I'm just wondering, the time you invested in multiple discussions here over the last few days, could have easily spent in getting the packages you're talking about polished and committed to the tree ;)
[19:10:35] <wltjr> me I never broke anything, no user ever had issue with me, just a handful of devs, literally a handful, doubt you could find more than maybe 10 with direct knowledge, most go on hear say, which is very accurate and factual
[19:10:55] <wltjr> mrueg: I am quite aware.... why I am pissed off at those wasting time vs making shit happen
[19:11:25] <wltjr> mrueg: I could also be a dev now with cvs commit access and commit that stuff to tree, but someone decided we needed to discuss social stuff, so here we are in the quagmire again
[19:12:17] <mrueg> wltjr: well I don't love quizzes either. I'd love to drop the technical part of the quizzes if a user has shown that she's capable of working with ebuilds via proxy-maintainers or mgorny's github tree mirror project
[19:12:28] <wltjr> mrueg: I could have been working on my java-config port, as I have been, much less other ebuilds, i had planned to submit tomcat 8 ebuild I made over a month ago along with others to bugzilla since fordfrog committed one from yesterday right away, but still why bother fordfrog I could have done all this directly myself
[19:12:44] <wltjr> mrueg: I haven't even got to quiz review, jlec side tracked things, ask him why
[19:12:57] <wltjr> mrueg: if he just did quiz review and kept it all business....
[19:13:20] <wltjr> mrueg: since I can't commit, I can just bitch not my choice, but I have tons of things to work on, like things that pay my bills being self employed
[19:13:38] <wltjr> my involvement with gentoo then and now is NOT profitable for me, it costs me dearly
[19:13:52] <wltjr> its why I have no tolerance for wasting time and not getting stuff done and become a jerk
[19:13:54] <mrueg> wltjr: neither it is for any of us, we're all volunteers.
[19:14:09] <mrueg> wltjr: just try to work with https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo-portage-rsync-mirror
[19:14:14] <wltjr> mrueg: so why waste anyones time? people keep bring up the past not me
[19:14:28] <mrueg> mgorny and others are really quick in getting things into the tree.
[19:14:31] <wltjr> mrueg: again I had planned to do quiz review with jlec today, he sidetracked that
[19:14:44] <mrueg> plus you get a free review of your ebuild to even improve yourself.
[19:14:53] <wltjr> mrueg: its not a practical long term solution again I did proxy for a while, you cannot maintain things via proxy
[19:15:07] <wltjr> mrueg: servletapi is horrible old how can I proxy remove that?
[19:15:20] <mrueg> wltjr: the issue of proxy maintainers is that bugzilla is not a peer review platform per se.
[19:15:25] <wltjr> the amoutn of work needed to be done is really tremendous it cannot be proxied
[19:15:35] <mrueg> wltjr: just add a pull request that removes the packages from the tree
[19:15:37] <wltjr> mrueg: most of my contributions don't need review just commit
[19:15:48] <wltjr> mrueg: again its all a waste of time
[19:15:50] <mrueg> wltjr: well then even better, the reviewer has less work.
[19:15:54] <wltjr> direct commit is most efficient
[19:16:09] <wltjr> mrueg: I don't need to do any of this, I have my own local overlay :)
[19:16:17] <mrueg> i'm sorry i don't have access to rsync mirrors.
[19:16:26] <wltjr> why do I care if gentoo has tomcat 8 or other updated packages? its only users who lose out :)
[19:16:27] <mrueg> I'm just proxying it via cvs
[19:17:00] <wltjr> mrueg: I don't need to be a dev, its just the most efficient way of getting stuff done and there is substantial work, packages to update, mask, remove entirely etc
[19:17:10] <wltjr> mrueg: again how can I proxy remove servletapi?
[19:17:21] <wltjr> I spent months as a dev working on removing that
[19:17:26] <wltjr> in 2008
[19:17:42] <wltjr> fyi servletapi literally is tomcat-serlvet-api, so its a duplicate package
[19:17:46] <mrueg> wltjr: https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo-portage-rsync-mirror fork it. do the changes locally to the tree. add a pull request with your changes.
[19:18:12] <mrueg> then someone will pick it up and apply the changes to the tree
[19:18:14] <wltjr> mrueg: that wastes time and I am simply not interested in any form or proxying
[19:18:35] <wltjr> mrueg: then, if they have time, when they have time, that will vary day after day, its no way to long term maintain or contribute
[19:18:40] <wltjr> it a waste of time...
[19:19:10] <mgorny> wltjr: your attitude is not helpful
[19:19:17] <mgorny> so far more time has been wasted on discussions
[19:19:35] <wltjr> I am being provided alternatives to what I am seeking, how is that helpful to me?
[19:19:48] <wltjr> mgorny: who has the attitude of helping me get back on board?
[19:20:01] <wltjr> mgorny: I have only had 1 person make any positive comments, fordforg, because he needs my work...
[19:20:17] <mgorny> i'd also love to see your work here
[19:20:28] <wltjr> go look at oracle-javamail in tree...
[19:20:28] <mgorny> but i feel like you're not treating us as equals
[19:20:33] <wltjr> i Just contributed that...
[19:20:45] <wltjr> mgorny: how am I being treated?
[19:20:54] <wltjr> its a 2 way street
[19:21:08] <wltjr> maybe self reflect and start with how you treat others before you comment on how they are acting etc
[19:21:17] <mgorny> did i treat you bad?
[19:21:35] <wltjr> the more you interact and get to know me you will learn I am quite polite and respectful, but I treat others as they treat me, if you are dismissive then I am the same
[19:21:55] <wltjr> mgorny: not bad per se, but suggesting I take alternatives routes to what I am seeking is not really helpful
[19:22:14] <wltjr> thats saying I have no clue what I am talking about, I have no idea of the work that needs to be done or the processs
[19:22:34] <wltjr> I know for a fact things that need to be done can't be proxied, best I could do is instruct someone, go mask this package, remove this one, update these deps etc
[19:22:37] <wltjr> its a freaking waste of time
[19:23:08] <mgorny> wltjr: i think you underestimate the power of pull requests here
[19:23:23] <mgorny> we can test & apply basically any change requested
[19:23:24] <wltjr> mgorny: also not realizing what I am going through just to update stuff I do not need to for myself, I am good, I am trying to do this stuff for others.... and it cost me financailly dearly
[19:23:28] <mgorny> ebuilds, eclasses, profiles, p.mask
[19:23:39] <wltjr> mgorny: how can you remove a package
[19:23:44] <mgorny> git rm
[19:23:51] <mgorny> we have a scripts to merge that
[19:23:53] <mrueg> well if one doen't have a driver's license, one is not allowed to drive. we suggested to take the bus instead. both will get one to the same goal. getting his or her packages delivered. ;)
[19:23:56] <wltjr> again your not helping me to become a dev, just keeping me outside but still wanting my contributions....
[19:24:08] <mgorny> wltjr: but i'm talking about using the rsync->git mirror
[19:24:09] <-- tgall_foo (~tgall@linaro/tgall-foo) hat das Netzwerk verlassen (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:24:19] <mgorny> i can't help you to become a dev since i'm not a recruiter
[19:24:24] <wltjr> mrueg: I am being denied the process of getting a license, being told to take the bus when I am applying for a license
[19:24:27] <mgorny> i can help you however i can if they don't want to help you
[19:24:44] <wltjr> mgorny: actually your wrong, you could talk to recuiters and others to help me become one
[19:25:03] <wltjr> there is ALWAYS something someone can do if they think and make some effort, but its easier to say there is nothing I can do , than to think of something to do to help out
[19:25:13] <mgorny> last time i talked to recruiters, they told me i'm stupid and have no clue about recruiting so i should shut up ;)
[19:25:22] <wltjr> but again this is not just me, I bet there will be less devs that come on board simply because I am not a dev
[19:25:54] <mgorny> wltjr: and now you're again showing the negative attitude
[19:25:59] <wltjr> I bet $ that gnu_andrew will not become a dev, why? because I am the only one talking to him about such, and I really wanted to see him become a dev than me, and I am not wanting just myself to become a dev but others
[19:26:27] <mgorny> i acknowledge your past contributions and skills
[19:26:29] <wltjr> mgorny: how am I being negative? by saying you could do something to help me get recruited?
[19:26:51] <mrueg> wltjr: providing you some links that include helpful material to become a gentoo dev: https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/recruiters/mentor.xml https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/
[19:26:56] <wltjr> mgorny: there is a present contributions as well, and only reason I am not contribiting more is people keep making it more difficult for me rather than other way aroudn
[19:27:04] <mrueg> if you need any help #gentoo-dev-help works, too.
[19:27:07] <wltjr> mgorny: I have read all those befoer
[19:27:14] <mgorny> sure
[19:27:14] <wltjr> I helped write the freaking java quiz...
[19:27:20] <wltjr> I wrote the by laws....
[19:27:50] <mgorny> but think how others feel about you
[19:27:51] <wltjr> I know more about gentoo than most... on many areas, that is the problem most have with me, I know the problems and might seek to fix those
[19:28:11] <wltjr> mgorny: I know, there are MANY more who have no issue with me than do, its just the ones that do are the gate keepers duh...
[19:28:12] <zlogene> wltjr, and now java-herd mentee submit this java-quiz to recruiters, dunno why :D
[19:28:15] <wltjr> same problem for years
[19:28:18] <mgorny> sorry if i get this wrong in english but you look to be boasting all the time
[19:28:27] <zlogene> not all recruiters know java
[19:28:43] <mgorny> i did this, i did that
[19:28:48] <wltjr> zlogene: don't even get me started, betelgeuse claimed conflict of interest as to being my recruiter one of the 4 or 5 times I have tried to return
[19:28:56] <mgorny> for many modern gentoo devs, you are someone they don't know
[19:29:06] <wltjr> zlogene: he was the ONLY recruiter with knowledge to review a java quiz... :)
[19:29:30] <wltjr> mgorny: if they don't know about me, that shows how they do not know about gentoo
[19:29:43] <mgorny> it doesn't feel good when you join back and you keep bragging about your past
[19:29:53] <wltjr> mgorny: again me getting gentoo legal again should be something people know about, not my fault they do not, that is a pretty major contribution, much less others
[19:30:13] <mgorny> so put it in a bio
[19:30:13] <wltjr> mgorny: its because there is no respect for such, most treat former board members very differently
[19:30:20] <mgorny> i'm hearing this for 4th time already, i think
[19:30:36] <zlogene> wltjr, yes, now i'n recruiting new guy fir java herd, he submitted java quiz too, not sure if i can even check it :D
[19:30:41] <mgorny> the point of free software is that people are equal
[19:30:48] <wltjr> zlogene: if you need help let me know....
[19:31:02] <mgorny> technical skills is what matters
[19:31:03] <wltjr> zlogene: I am re-writing java-config in C and came across a variety of issues and things
[19:31:32] <mgorny> if you want to do something good, i will like it because it is good, not because you did X in the past
[19:31:32] <wltjr> mgorny: no one has ever had a single issue with my technical skills, they just want to gripe about social, and they really have no idea
[19:31:40] <zlogene> wltjr, we still on ebuild-quiz, so, there are a lot of work to do
[19:31:55] <wltjr> where I am at in in the south, sothern hospitatliy, respect and politeness are very important, but if I am rude to soemone they will be right back
[19:32:28] <wltjr> zlogene: I think that is Chewi or another, I had been talking to Chewi for several years about becoming a dev
[19:32:56] <wltjr> most of the java team I helped bring on board and encouraged, I plan to do that again..., caster, ali_bush, fordfrog, etc
[19:33:16] <zlogene> wltjr, you are right, as you can see i'm on the header of his developer bug
[19:33:45] <wltjr> I know allot sounds like braging, but at the saem time I am kicking myself, I really did not think I was so key, I though many would step up in my absence, but it hasn't been the case, so I started to wonder is it my fault, am I to blame, should I have stayed, should I return?
[19:34:17] <wltjr> also from making some perl ebuilds recently, none of the quizzes prepare you for that
[19:34:28] <wltjr> perl ebuilds are quite different with cpan integration etc
[19:34:33] <mgorny> that's why i prefer visible contributions ;)
[19:35:42] -*- zlogene wears perl team lead hat  and says "gcpan is broken" 
[19:35:56] <wltjr> mgorny: I pointed out a case the other day, I submitted ebuilds for eclipse-ecj, I noticed problems in the ebuild that was presently going stable, I corrected such, but figured there might be a tweak or two needed, rather than provide me feedback, I had wanted the ebuild to be reviewed, if anything was amiss, correct before commit
[19:35:56] --> tgall_foo (~tgall@linaro/tgall-foo) hat #gentoo-comrel betreten
[19:36:30] <wltjr> mgorny: instead I got nit picking on rm -f not needing || die, so my ebuild was ingored, the one in tree was bumped, and guess what remains? rm -f || die....
[19:36:46] <wltjr> mgorny: so its not very motivating to show you work for others to nit pick, then to ingore, and commit garbage to tree
[19:37:18] <wltjr> mgorny: my 1st ebuild jdbc-jaybird, i spent months reworking the syntax, java stuff kept changing etc, I kept tweaking
[19:37:45] <wltjr> mgorny: that ebuild is still messed up... I wasted so much time in showing others my work on that stuff, it really did little in the end
[19:38:49] <wltjr> mgorny: but given that most of what I will do is in java, you can ask most any of them, or grep the tree for my username, though not sure I am always given credit for some contributions despite policy, I really don't care about credit, just others want to see the owrk
[19:39:21] <mgorny> wltjr: yes, that's a bad thing to happen
[19:39:30] <mgorny> you can CC qa@ in that case
[19:39:55] <wltjr> mgorny: but in quiz review its pretty clear to know I have a clue what I am talking about and have knowledge on gentoo etc
[19:40:52] <wltjr> more of my work is not visible because I dislike proxying etc, when I was proxy maintaining firebird at one point my business email was in the meta data... bugs were being assigned to me  could not fix in tree etc
[19:41:57] <mgorny> bugs being assigned is the point of proxy maintaining
[19:42:00] <wltjr> end of the day I do not lose out by not being a dev, I do feel gentoo does and users definitley do when it comes to packages, its sad that recruiting and others have not realized or care about such for 7+ yeras now
[19:42:01] <mgorny> i don't know who you worked with
[19:42:25] <wltjr> mgorny: patrick, my point was how do you assign bugs to someone who is not even a dev, they can't fix directly
[19:42:54] <wltjr> you really cannot proxy change stuff, how would I proxy change p.mask?
[19:43:01] <wltjr> or proxy a package removal
[19:43:20] <mgorny> you can do that with git mirror
[19:43:21] <wltjr> seriously right now, who wants to proxy remove serlvetapi, let see how trival that is...
[19:43:44] <mgorny> well, last rites are a bit harder but i don't think it would be impossible
[19:44:00] <mgorny> in fact, if you did this right this would be a good proof of your skills
[19:44:04] <wltjr> mgorny: never said impossible, just a waste of another persons time
[19:44:18] <wltjr> its NEVER smart to have 2 do the job of 1, nothing you can say makes that efficient
[19:44:35] <wltjr> mgorny: proof of my skills is NOT the issue, its ANYTHING but
[19:44:51] <wltjr> again I am re-writing java-config in C, that is FAR beyond ebuild maintaining or anything on quizzes
[19:44:52] <mgorny> it's smart to have more pairs of eyes whenever possible
[19:45:04] <mgorny> wltjr: and how is that related to being a gentoo developer? :)
[19:45:15] <wltjr> mgorny: no disagreement there, more eyes are on tree than git mirror :)
[19:45:17] <mgorny> that's being an upstream for java-config
[19:45:35] <wltjr> mgorny: java-config is a gentoo project, gentoo is the upstream...
[19:45:48] <mgorny> java team, likely
[19:45:52] <wltjr> mgorny: its a Gentoo specific tool, no other distro has a java-config
[19:45:56] <mgorny> you can join java team without having gentoo repo commit access
[19:46:11] <wltjr> mgorny: no one is working on that, I right now know more about java-config than likely any other java dev...
[19:46:29] <wltjr> mgorny: your telling me things I know, I created the old java team and organized meetings
[19:46:37] <wltjr> which meetings fell apart after
[19:46:43] <wltjr> as did the team
[19:46:53] <mgorny> that's what happens in gentoo
[19:47:07] <mgorny> i'm no longer encouraging people to become developers
[19:47:21] <wltjr> I could do what gnu_andrew has proxying icedtea, till I saw his comments about new stuff being in overlay for a week, and knowing he maintains openjdk its no way to do that long term
[19:47:24] <mgorny> i just say, do what you find convenient for you
[19:48:04] <mgorny> wltjr: you can suggest the git mirror to gnu_andrew, that's the faster than some overlay with java team access
[19:48:20] <wltjr> mgorny: why he hell not? everyone should be a developer, what is with the elitist crap? gentoo is not that great, it might have once been, but given distros like debian have more current packages, really people need to get over themselves and realize gentoo needs help bad
[19:48:29] <mgorny> if they tell me i can merge his commits without review, it's <12h
[19:48:31] <wltjr> mgorny: I suggested he be a dev
[19:48:39] <wltjr> omg
[19:48:49] <mgorny> wltjr: i just respect people's time
[19:49:02] <mgorny> i see how bad recruitment in gentoo is, and i tell them how the reality looks like
[19:49:05] <wltjr> mgorny: you have no idea, few know about iceatea like gnu_andrew, review his ebuilds hardly....
[19:49:19] <wltjr> mgorny: then get involved with recruiting project and make it better
[19:49:28] <wltjr> fix what is broken don't circumvent
[19:49:31] <mgorny> i know he is the best
[19:49:38] <mgorny> but i still would use a formal confirmation
[19:49:54] <mgorny> hmm, though he's listed as maintainer
[19:49:55] <wltjr> mgorny: are you full aware of java on gentoo?
[19:49:59] <mgorny> so no, i don't need formal confimration ;)
[19:50:01] <wltjr> mgorny: can you do the quiz and review them?
[19:50:19] <mgorny> sorry, what do you mean now?
[19:50:29] <mgorny> i can formally be a mentor, if that's what you ask
[19:50:47] <mgorny> not that i have the qualities
[19:50:51] <wltjr> mgorny: there is a java quiz one sec I will get you a link
[19:51:10] <wltjr> mgorny: to be a gentoo java developer there were actually 3 quizzes
[19:51:23] <mgorny> no, i don't do java :)
[19:51:33] <mgorny> i just do generic user reviews/merging
[19:51:38] <wltjr> mgorny: ok so how could you review anything from gnu_andrew or me? :)
[19:51:43] <mgorny> user->developer interaction, basic ebuild syntax, hints and tips
[19:51:46] <wltjr> mgorny: its quite different
[19:51:52] <mgorny> generic rules apply always
[19:52:05] <wltjr> mgorny: this is not that, you would miss things for sure that are not general syntax but java specific
[19:52:06] <mgorny> like ||die
[19:52:11] <mgorny> sure
[19:52:16] <wltjr> mgorny: NO, why there is a quiz, there is allot that is different
[19:52:16] <mgorny> that's why i would CC maintainers
[19:52:29] <wltjr> mgorny: no one maintains tomcat, I was the maintainer....
[19:52:33] <mgorny> and ask them for review
[19:52:36] <wltjr> mgorny: I made the only tomcat docs that others have based theirs off
[19:52:57] <mgorny> it's listed as java@, so i CC java people
[19:53:01] <wltjr> mgorny: forfrog had questions about my oracle-javamail, and did not realize I had corrected thing already...
[19:53:01] <mgorny> and ask them if they could review
[19:53:16] <wltjr> mgorny: yes and I am telling you I can do the review you cant :)
[19:53:32] <wltjr> mgorny: so if I show you tomcat 8 ebuild, who will you have review that? :)
[19:53:40] <mgorny> long story short, when i proxy for someone, i take the responsibility
[19:53:54] <mgorny> if i'm in doubt, i follow the formal rules for authorities
[19:54:02] <wltjr> what formal rules
[19:54:16] <wltjr> much of this is not documented, gentoos famouse adhere to this undocumented policy
[19:54:32] <mgorny> <maintainer/> tags, for a start
[19:54:34] <wltjr> I just did the quizzes where does it talk about CC'ing a team for review :)
[19:54:39] <mgorny> if i don't know java, i ask java people for help
[19:54:56] <wltjr> mgorny: again if a package has no maintainer, because I was the maintainer and no one has replaced me in 7 years
[19:55:14] <wltjr> mgorny: and I can provide that help, yet i am still having to prove/show my skills :)
[19:55:20] <wltjr> its funnny
[19:55:26] <mgorny> that depends
[19:55:41] <mgorny> if you want to proxy-maintain it, i don't request much proof from you
[19:55:52] <wltjr> I don't want to, i havent I did that for a bit and have NO interest
[19:55:54] <mgorny> if you want to go full-dev, it's not me who you end up dealing with ;)
[19:56:07] <wltjr> its either direct commit or I will keep things local, that is most efficient time wise for me
[19:56:30] <wltjr> mgorny: I know this you stated such many times, but you could also be talking to recruiters as to why they are not processing me :)
[19:56:50] <wltjr> recuiters should be acting on the will of the community not their own internal convos
[19:57:46] <mgorny> your attitude is not helpful again
[19:57:55] <mgorny> now you're saying 'i want it all or fuck you because i'm important'
[19:57:59] <wltjr> I myself for my own reasons do not need to be a dev, do not care about such, its not condusive to my business etc, I just hate seeing other distros have things available gentoo does not, if others are ok with that, I can deal
[19:58:23] <wltjr> mgorny: no, I am saying I want to work efficiently where I can have the greatest impact, or not
[19:58:33] <mgorny> that's the attitude that has been troubling gentoo for long
[19:58:38] <wltjr> mgorny: I have other things more important to me
[19:58:39] <mgorny> that's the vapier attitude
[19:58:49] <wltjr> mgorny: well then its more the attitude of those keeping others out then ;)
[19:59:01] <wltjr> mgorny: why not include all? what does exlusion get you?
[19:59:33] <mgorny> why not? because i don't have time to clean up after them
[19:59:37] <wltjr> a rh buddy for years has tried to get me to contribute to fedora, why should I not spend my time there, or arch or other, exherbo :)
[19:59:45] <mgorny> i'm not saying the current practices are good
[19:59:52] <wltjr> mgorny: why do you have to? maybe someone else coudl
[20:00:14] <wltjr> mgorny: gentoo does not get better by letting less in, it gets better by letting more in and improving qa
[20:00:16] <mgorny> but i already cleaned up after more than one developers because nobody else was around
[20:00:27] <mgorny> i already more than once had to defer my important work because someone else broke something
[20:00:34] <wltjr> mgorny: yes and one way to prevent that is make sure someone else is around :)
[20:00:48] <wltjr> mgorny: if you had more help that might not have been the issue
[20:00:56] <wltjr> mgorny: if there were more devs to do the work....
[20:00:59] <mgorny> but someone else has to be capable of working in team and fixing stuff
[20:01:08] <wltjr> mgorny: again that was NEVER my problem
[20:01:44] <wltjr> mgorny: my gentoo issues were never around work, you could say it was social things with the foundation, that was sort work just not technical
[20:02:39] <wltjr> mgorny: for years I have tried to just get back to the technical aspects, technical contributions, but EVERY TIME the process stalls due to social bs that comes from devrel/comrel etc, just like today, jlec could have done quiz review, and would have seen my knowledge first hand, but instead chose a different route
[20:02:41] <mgorny> you say that but why should i trust you?
[20:02:52] <mgorny> you are already arguing for 2 days
[20:02:53] <wltjr> mgorny: go do the resesarch it all public
[20:03:09] <wltjr> mgorny: arguing for 2 days? who did I argue with yesterda?
[20:03:10] <mgorny> why should i do the research? it's you wanting to join
[20:03:26] <mgorny> just hypothetically
[20:03:37] <wltjr> mgorny: you say you don't trust me, I am not saying take my word, go read list archives, go look at the facts yourself, VERY few did
[20:03:46] <mgorny> i have pointed out how you can contribute to gain my trust
[20:03:54] <wltjr> mgorny: just as I have to learn for the quizzes others can use google to learn about me
[20:04:05] <mgorny> but instead, you say that you won't contribute this way because you want the full commit access instead
[20:04:17] <wltjr> mgorny: I don't need YOUR trust, I won't be working with you after, and you cannot provide me help on what I will be working on
[20:04:17] <mgorny> and you should know how difficult it is to work sane with cvs
[20:04:43] <wltjr> mgorny: yes I worked with the tree for years, if you learn about me, I was known for zero day commits
[20:04:48] <mgorny> if we had git, sure, but with cvs it's me potentially wasting time trying to figure out what happened
[20:04:57] <mgorny> and you now disrespect me, which is not helpful either
[20:05:02] <wltjr> I had beta version of things in tree tested before the release, way ahead of other distros, gentoo lead then
[20:05:05] <mgorny> you discourage me from contributing to gentoo this way
[20:05:12] <mgorny> this is bad for teamwork
[20:05:22] <wltjr> mgorny: how did I disrepesct you?
[20:05:33] <mgorny> even if i'm not on your team, i'm a developer and my contributions are meaningful to users
[20:05:43] <mgorny> <wltjr> mgorny: I don't need YOUR trust, I won't be working with you after [...]
[20:05:44] <wltjr> mgorny: saying I don't need your trust is not disrespectul, I bet there are developers who don't trust you
[20:06:01] <mgorny> but anyway, that's pure hypothesis
[20:06:07] <mgorny> i'm telling you how others are going to feel about you
[20:06:12] <wltjr> mgorny: by default you are not supposed to modify a package someone else maintains even if you are a dev, and that is partialy around trust
[20:06:38] <wltjr> mgorny: most have no issue with me, and even less who work with me, anyone who does not and just talks to me, likely has issue ;)
[20:06:54] <wltjr> mgorny: you haven't seen my stuff because you do not work on java stuff
[20:07:19] <wltjr> mgorny: but again if you want to see, go look at orace-javamail, they ingored my changes for eclipse-ecj and the ant version
[20:07:33] <wltjr> had things gone differnetly today you could look at tomcat 8 in tree
[20:07:54] <mgorny> i'm not arguing that you don't
[20:08:02] <mgorny> i'm just saying that you should respect others and their time
[20:08:02] <wltjr> mgorny: but the fact that I maintained many package for years should be enough
[20:08:15] <mgorny> recruiters are the people who have time to help you but you have to comply to the rules
[20:08:35] <wltjr> mgorny: I do, and have, again go look at backlog I was brief I wasnt' ranting, up until jlec brought up social bs, if he kept it business it would be now :)
[20:08:39] <mgorny> sure, they can do some ammendments to make you avoid repeating the same tasks fifth time
[20:08:42] <wltjr> mgorny: dude what rules?
[20:08:52] <wltjr> mgorny: yesterday it was get quizzes and a mentor, I have that today
[20:08:52] <mgorny> but you have to be fair to others
[20:09:00] <wltjr> then it became show me your work, I provided information
[20:09:02] <mgorny> so what's the problem?
[20:09:13] <wltjr> then it became well I talked to others and now concerned about social aspects
[20:09:14] <mgorny> you should discuss it with your mentor
[20:09:18] <wltjr> mgorny: go read the backlog
[20:09:32] <mgorny> either he mentors you, or not
[20:09:34] <wltjr> mgorny: fordfrog is my mentor, but what is he to say about that?
[20:09:44] <mgorny> he is to vouch for you
[20:09:48] <wltjr> mgorny: mentor for what? that is a technical thing, to make sure I don't make mistakes or break stuff
[20:10:02] <wltjr> mgorny: vouch for contributions technically not social behavior
[20:10:18] <wltjr> mgorny: again the social bs came from jlec we should not have gone down this path
[20:10:43] <wltjr> I doubt its normal part of recruting to go talk to others about a persons past etc, rather than to do what is stated and do quiz review etc
[20:10:57] <mgorny> you know, you are talkin about your past all the time ;P
[20:11:06] <wltjr> mgorny: they create the situation in which they some what fear
[20:11:13] <wltjr> mgorny: I did not bring it up, again look at a backlog
[20:11:31] <mgorny> so don't make reasons for them to distrust you
[20:11:43] <wltjr> mgorny: jlec was concerned about the social stuff from the past... I did not bring that up, others keep bring it up, and they only bring up the negative from the past which is MINOR compared to the positive which is overlooked, so I mention the positive
[20:11:53] <wltjr> mgorny: they create it
[20:11:54] <mgorny> just be nice and don't get angry
[20:12:06] <wltjr> mgorny: I am not wanted, so they create a situation that lets them justify their stance
[20:12:08] <mgorny> prove them wrong
[20:12:26] <mgorny> they have no reason not to recruit you if you comply to all their fancy wannabies
[20:12:30] <wltjr> mgorny: who 2 or 3 people? they really have the right to hold the community back?
[20:12:49] <wltjr> mgorny: I did, I cannot satisfy some concern about social bs
[20:12:52] <mgorny> as in 'social bs' can't really make them not recruit you
[20:12:56] <wltjr> mgorny: that is NOT a gentoo policy by any means
[20:13:04] <wltjr> mgorny: well why I am not doing quiz review?
[20:13:06] <wltjr> :)
[20:13:20] <mgorny> maybe they wait till you calm down ;P
[20:13:34] <mgorny> i'm sorry but i have a QA team meeting right now, and need to focus on that
[20:13:35] <wltjr> mgorny: if you look at my comments, I was trying to set a time with jlec for a review...
[20:13:57] <wltjr> mgorny: I am not upset never have been or not, people take things out of context, I am hardly raging
[20:14:25] <wltjr> mgorny: its not going to happen, I have been here many times before, I think this is my 5th attempt at returning
[20:16:02] <mgorny> did previous attempts end up with some people doubting your social?
[20:16:50] <wltjr> mgorny: they always end up in the same place, social bs tanks the process
[20:17:14] <wltjr> mgorny: others bring up problems from the past assume they are going to happen again, start focusing on how I act vs technical contributions, they create the situation
[20:17:48] <wltjr> mgorny: put in other words they do things to press my buttons on purpose, if they did not do that stuff, and did what they would for ANYONE else, then things would be different, but I keep getting special treatment, in a VERY BAD way....
[20:18:13] <wltjr> seriously no one would tolerate what I have been going through, walk in my shoes and see how you would react
[20:18:49] <mgorny> i believe that
[20:19:04] <mgorny> and if you can be quite civil nevertheless, i don't see a problem
[20:19:22] <wltjr> mgorny: there never has been other than the ones others create
[20:19:32] <wltjr> that goes back to the -nfp and how this all started years ago
[20:20:13] <wltjr> fact is most care less about the foundation so few had any clue, they just saw the aftermath and assumed, oh this guy must be toxic, though anyone who looked at any details realized very quickly that was not the case
[20:20:43] <wltjr> mgorny: what I am going through now is not a documented part of the recruitment policy, so why am I stalled her, who knows :)
[20:21:11] <wltjr> mgorny: last time I mentioned some of this on a bug, aside from being told it was the wrong place, many were quite concerned and wanted to me to take it to -project
[20:21:34] <wltjr> I could have been posting on list and bitching for years, I just stayed silent, I am really not trying to involve others or waste anyones time on stupid matters I am stuck dealing with
[20:22:21] <wltjr> mgorny: but I should have known better about the recruting process, even with new people on staff, things still seem the same, and seems like there is no where for me to go from here, so just did the quizzes again for nothing....
[20:22:31] <wltjr> I have done the quizzes like 4 times now i think... :)
[20:23:23] <wltjr> not to mention what happene to infra seems some bad stuff happened there, gentoo infra used to be 2nd most influencial and powerful after the council, but now is mia

[...]

[00:00:00] - {Tageswechsel: Donnerstag, 19. Februar 2015}

[...]

[15:48:04] <wltjr> jlec: attitude won't change, its the culture of recruiting that needs to be changed, also you fail to realize its actions by recruiting and others that bring out the attitude, so if that changes well then :)
[15:49:44] <wltjr> jlec: but reality is after 7+ years, after this time I am likely to move on from gentoo entirely, been wanting to check out freebsd, might just switch over entirely or other distro I really don't need gentoo, much less to contribute... recruiters need to realize not many if any are willing to do the work I am, NO one has shown up in 7+ years, how many more years does recruiting want to wait for someon
[15:49:50] <wltjr> e to show up to maintain things much less improve and further, I am sure many would love to have people contributing on java stuff...
[15:50:35] <wltjr> freebsd has an awesome foundation, I looked at their foundation allot when I was gentoo trustee, and freebsd is a true 501c, they passed their 5yr probation
[15:51:21] <wltjr> so recruiters let me know if you want to process me, if not no worries won't be making any more noise have other things to do, and places to contribute where my contributions are WANTED and APPRECIATED unlike here...
[15:52:51] <xiaomiao> wltjr: I've offered my help to infra and recruiters often enough, apparently they don't need help (while complaining that they need help)
[15:52:58] -*- xiaomiao doesn't claim to understand humans
[15:53:21] <wltjr> xiaomiao: its clear they want to keep it some exclusive club, despite the cruft in tree, outdated, broken packages, etc
[15:53:41] <xiaomiao> be careful, you might hurt someone's feelings
[15:53:41] <wltjr> rather than a process where ANYONE can learn contribute and join regardless of attitude, skills, etc...
[15:53:58] <wltjr> xiaomiao: won't be the first or last time :) I will bust out my violin
[15:54:07] <xiaomiao> :D
[15:54:44] <wltjr> gentoo isn't cisco not like anyone got hired for recommending gentoo... I have yet to see many companies take it seriously
[15:55:29] <wltjr> xiaomiao: but looking at some of the past key players knowing they are falling off, gentoo could be facing a very rough future if they do not fix the dev:packages ratio
[15:56:20] <wltjr> 1647 packages orphaned, maintainer-needed, but does comrel give a crap about that? ;)
[15:56:44] <wltjr> robbat2 500+ vapier 500+, lose either one of those and well that number goes up allot
[15:57:01] <wltjr> even patrick I worked with for a while I have not been able to find is 350+
[15:57:53] <wltjr> jlec: your right up there as well #3 or #4 if including orphaned with 500+ as well
[15:58:03] <wltjr> http://euscan.gentooexperimental.org/maintainers/
[15:58:57] <wltjr> to bad that doesn't list a total could get a idea of the ratio of unmainted to total packages, as well as the ratio of maintainers to packages
[15:59:52] <wltjr> this is really serious stuff I hope comrel treats it as such... I highly doubt robbat2 and vapier will be around 5+ years from now, its possible, but I have seen most any I used to work with and attended Linux World Expo back in they day are all gone or MIA
[16:02:11] <wltjr> by the way, work with me no attitude, get in my way of getting work done, making progress, furthering things, being efficient, you get attitude :) easy problem to solve, work make things happen be part of the solution rather than the problem and never an attitude from me... or anyone else :)
[16:02:56] <wltjr> after all comrel is hardly development or technical so it should NOT hold those things back for any non-technical reason...
[16:03:23] <wltjr> if comrel is holding gentoo back, then like devrel it should GO AWAY, or get out of the way
[16:03:29] <wltjr> do something lead follow or get out of the way....
[16:27:23] <-- c74d (~c74d3a4eb@2002:4404:712c:0:76de:2bff:fed4:2766) hat das Netzwerk verlassen (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[16:29:09] --> c74d (~c74d3a4eb@2002:4404:712c:0:76de:2bff:fed4:2766) hat #gentoo-comrel betreten
[16:53:08] <wltjr> http://euscan.gentooexperimental.org/herds/
[16:53:49] <wltjr> sort taht by outdated packages.... perl is in the lead with 921, then proxy maintainers 885, then gstreamer, gnome, java, etc.... gentoo is hurting
[16:55:34] <wltjr> over half proxy maintained stuff is out of date, 2/3s of gnome is out of date, 1/4 of java, gstreamer doesn't make sense 266 total but 644 outdated
[16:58:54] <kensington> a lot of what euscan counts as missed versions of gstreamer is invalid
[16:59:07] <wltjr> kensington: yeah clearly that one cannot be trusted :)
[16:59:28] <wltjr> even if its not accurate on the rest it doesn't show good stuff, debian stable might be in better shape new stuff, that is really sad
[16:59:39] <kensington> see http://euscan.gentooexperimental.org/package/media-plugins/gst-plugins-vorbis/ I guess that plugin is removed/merged into something different in :1.0
[17:00:39] <wltjr> kensington: sure not really concerned with any specific herd, just showing in general there is tremendous work to be done
[17:00:48] <wltjr> just to get things current, not to mention further things, improve etc
[17:00:58] <kensington> sure, I know that perl and ruby have new life lately
[17:01:32] <wltjr> I have some perl ebuilds to contribute and could help out there as I depend on assp, and that is also outdated I have newer ebuilds for that, and pretty sure most version of ASSP in tree are broken because you can't download the source
[17:02:26] <kensington> fortunately perl team had some people join and is much more active these days
[17:02:53] <wltjr> need to find out if perl has issues with IPv6, of it its ASSP, can't use IPv6 wildcards in ASSP and ASSP has problems with IPv6 DNS resolution, like using IPv6 IP for DNS server for resolution, only likes to use IPv4, not sure if that is ASSP or the perl module IO::Socket::INET6
[17:03:45] <wltjr> I guess I am glad I switched from gnome to kde on gentoo... given gnome has fallen by the way side 2/3rds I hope that number is inaccurate like gstreamer
[17:04:23] <wltjr> I know the java number is about accurate, and some of those packages need to be removed, servletapi, glassfish-servlet-api, others
[17:04:33] <kensington> gnome has beeen quiet lately, but there seems to be some signs of more activity lately which is good
[17:04:39] <kensington> yeah, java needs a lot of love :(
[17:05:00] <wltjr> kensington: I have tried but my efforst have been kept out for years...
[17:05:11] <wltjr> kensington: I am almost done porting java-config to C and it screams....
[17:06:04] <wltjr> also fixing bugs in the python version presently available on gentoo and in tree, which no one is working on, fixing any issues, or improving
[17:06:08] <wltjr> http://pastebin.com/WqcisK21
[17:06:20] <wltjr> also added new features like sorting package in the package list, etc
[17:07:03] <wltjr> might even evolve it so other distros can use java-config as well, since I believe none have anything like it to manage java env variables, JAVA_HOME, CLASSPATH etc, which on gentoo is set per package
[17:07:08] <kensington> I don't know if java is so much keeping people out as is generally inactive
[17:07:18] <wltjr> in fact gentoo gcc needs to learn from gentoo java, and get rid of question 21 on end-quiz
[17:07:28] <wltjr> kensington: I know the problems its recruiting
[17:07:38] <wltjr> kensington: old java team lead was team lead of recruiting
[17:08:11] <wltjr> kensington: but I have seen several come and go that contributed allot and never became devs, they might have stuck around if they were encouraged to be devs etc
[17:08:44] <wltjr> others like gnu_andrew who is literally responsible for FOSS java on gentoo, which I am sure no one cares about since no one on Gentoo has problem with closed source binaries like Oracle/Formerly Sun Java JRE/JDK
[17:09:03] <wltjr> well gnu_andrew works in an overlay rather than being a dev, which he should have been years ago...
[17:09:21] <kensington> sure, there's always room for improvement
[17:09:33] <wltjr> no one aside from me talks to gnu_andrew about becoming a dev, and if I got processed yesterday instead of the bs, that would have encouraged gnu_andrew to spend the time on the quizzes etc
[17:10:16] <wltjr> instead he saw me get no where, drama, since he is working at RedHat, even being paid to work on Java on Gentoo, he will NOT waste time to deal with gentoo recruitment bs, no one working on Linux as part of their day job could justify such
[17:10:35] <kensington> i guess it's difficult to find a mentor for someone working primarily in an area untouched by others
[17:10:37] <wltjr> oh hey boss, I can't join gentoo, they don't like my attitude... I am sure that will fly in the corporate world....
[17:11:02] <wltjr> kensington: not at all, its difficult to get recruiters to recruit they are just HR process applications and become a road block rather than a gateway
[17:11:30] <kensington> wrt to attitude, of course it's important
[17:11:40] <wltjr> kensington: none of these things are difficult I built the java team before and plan to again if recruiting will cooperate and help out
[17:12:02] <wltjr> kensington: it really is not, if it was many would fail in life, go look at the attitudes of those at the top companies
[17:12:21] <wltjr> kensington: most all lost their cool are harsh, known to be jerks etc, its business, survival of the fittest, not the nicest...
[17:12:40] <wltjr> its kill or be killed, not befriend... dog eat dog world, not dog loves all dogs...
[17:13:09] <kensington> gentoo is not big business and we already have more than enough assholes to go aroudn
[17:13:24] <wltjr> gentoo has become pussified for real, does no one have thick skin? can't see through some bs for technical value? tantrums anti-social behavior immaturity etc is what tech is known for, go into the security world and it gets WORSE
[17:13:45] <wltjr> kensington: my point is gentoo will not get contributions from big businesses and others its not worth their time to contribute that is not good
[17:13:49] <wltjr> that was NOT how it used to be
[17:14:01] <wltjr> BIG companies used to have interest in Gentoo and don't now
[17:14:34] <wltjr> I recall a gentoo linux newsletter about a former gentoo developer, at the time current, who worked for a supercomputer company, I can't recall but some 256+ processors
[17:14:42] <wltjr> back in the day etrade use to brag about running gentoo
[17:14:52] <wltjr> when was the last time gentoo was in the news
[17:15:21] <kensington> I somehow doubt corporate interest in gentoo has much to do with comrel activities
[17:15:25] <wltjr> gentoo was totally overlooked with regard to openrc and systemd seems to be anti unix philosophy and very controversial
[17:15:42] <wltjr> gentoo has some revolutionary stuff that NO other distros are adopting
[17:16:01] <wltjr> kensington: it does, I was seeking to change this stuff when I was part of the foundation, I had great plans
[17:16:36] <kensington> the foundation has nothing to do with comrel
[17:16:42] <wltjr> kensington: I wanted to see gentoo work with vendors and get hardware donations and be certified etc like you see with RHEL and SUSE EL, etc
[17:17:11] <wltjr> kensington: its all related, comrel limits dev pool, that effects the foundation, its difficult for non-devs to become foundation members
[17:17:21] <kensington> what stops you from doing that?
[17:17:23] <wltjr> kensington: comrel, formerly devrel drove me away, so that was REALLY bad
[17:19:04] <kensington> it's clearly written how non-devs can become foundation members
[17:19:33] <wltjr> kensington: comrel formerly devrel has been the road block for 7+ years for me to return going on some 4 or 5 attempts now, 3 different times doing quizzes since my 1st in 2006
[17:19:53] <wltjr> kensington: its not easy to lead from outside its very difficult to lead from within
[17:20:12] <wltjr> kensington: anyway your comments are like others, rather keep people out than in, so why should I bother or others
[17:20:25] <wltjr> kensington: plus nothing i can do on the foudnation will help given the state of things in gentoo, outdate packages etc
[17:21:01] <wltjr> kensington: can't build relationships with companies around outdated tech
[17:21:04] <kensington> wltjr: unfortunately I don't think you'll find much support for accepting new developers regardless of their behaviour
[17:21:24] <wltjr> kensington: yes that is my point, my attitude is really not the issue, and its not just with me its all around
[17:21:45] <wltjr> kensington: its been a problem for a long time, and it does not seem to be who is part of comrel/devrel or the entity name, its the same disease
[17:22:26] <wltjr> its creating the toxic atmosphere, doesn't really effect me other than it would be sad to see gentoo continue to declien as it has been for a long time now
[17:22:49] <kensington> some might say the toxic atmosphere comes from those that act without regard to others
[17:23:05] <wltjr> I am really at the point of moving on from gentoo, I am sure many other distros would welcome contributions, and had offers of jobs at RH before
[17:23:24] <wltjr> kensington: that would be comrel/devrel, they are not taking users into consideration at all with their actions
[17:23:32] <wltjr> users do not benefit from things not being updated
[17:23:39] <wltjr> users do not benefit from less developers
[17:23:58] <kensington> you are over simplifying
[17:24:17] <wltjr> kensington: not really, its not a complex matter, people are making it such
[17:24:26] <wltjr> kensington: gentoo does not have anything different than any FOSS project for real
[17:24:51] <wltjr> but all others make it happen, but as I pointed out many times and on my developer bug, NO other anything had an entity like devrel
[17:24:54] <kensington> you can't reduce a distribution to what bits it writes to its mirrors
[17:25:06] <wltjr> comrel is a attempt to be more like others in regard to community/developer etc relations
[17:25:17] <kensington> ever looked at the debian recruitment process?
[17:25:56] <wltjr> kensington: long ago, its been a while at one LWE everyone from the gentoo booth attended a LUG meeting in SF which was a debian developer doing a presentation it was a good learning experience for debian
[17:26:16] <wltjr> kensington: former leader of my local lug was maybe still is head of debian woman
[17:26:49] <kensington> i think you'll find debian has its fair share of bureaucracy too
[17:26:54] <wltjr> lots of people in my area are debian fans and maybe a developer or two, and this is not really a tech centric area, more windows than linux, though thats changing due to oracle pushing linux over solaris
[17:27:16] <wltjr> kensington: yes but they are organized, legal 501c, have annual conferences etc
[17:27:38] <wltjr> kensington: gentoo would only be so lucky, I had plans for such through the foundation, I do not see the council ever organizing a gentoo event
[17:28:01] <wltjr> kensington: I am not anti-bureaucracy, in fact that is part of gentoo's problem, lack of organization
[17:28:17] <kensington> organising gentoo events is not one of the council's purposes
[17:28:22] <wltjr> kensington: lack of heirarchy, I used to call it a three headed snake, but 1 head seems to have been cut off, infra
[17:28:40] <wltjr> kensington: yes I know, and the foudnation has never been what it was always intended to be
[17:29:11] <wltjr> its inept, it was never intended to be such, the foundation was meant to lead gentoo, with the council being in charge technically, I refer to the councile as CFO
[17:29:13] <kensington> lack of organisation is also one of gentoo's greatest strengths - we are a metadistribution after all :-)
[17:29:53] <wltjr> kensington: then why should social chaos be bad? if the development process is chaos, lack of organization, gentoos greatest strength... :)
[17:30:19] <wltjr> kensington: you reap what you sow.... no organization, your going to get crazy attitudes at times, they are dealing with chaos
[17:30:32] <kensington> without strong organisation we rely on each other's good behaviour to keep things running
[17:31:12] <wltjr> kensington: for example my attitude comes from no clear path in, and roadblocks, even jlec hinted on like he was willing to help out, then as it got time to make things happen, excuse after excuse, I would rather just say no upfront and save all time and bs
[17:31:29] <wltjr> kensington: people do not behave good in general
[17:31:33] <wltjr> that is against mankind
[17:31:56] <wltjr> again gentoo can pee in the wind, try to make everyone play nice, but that is not a realistic goal and does nothing to accomplish technical things
[17:32:12] <wltjr> the best outcome is oil and water mix, and they do not get along rightly so, but when they can come together magic happens
[17:32:35] <kensington> to be completely honest, based on this conversation, I don't think that you and gentoo really are a good fit together
[17:32:51] <wltjr> I am not saying I am him, but I am saying that toxic people are not always such, again Bill Gates, Steve Balmer, Steve Jobbs, Mark Zuckerburg, Eistein, Tesla, go on and one they all had bad attitudes
[17:33:09] <wltjr> kensington: yes I know, thus i am saying I will likely leave for good this time
[17:33:27] <wltjr> kensington: I doubt anyone involved with java will like that, despite me not being aroud much over the years
[17:34:20] <wltjr> kensington: gentoo needs me more than I need gentoo, its only people involved with gentoo, that have not worked with me, that likely would not once I was a developer, that seem to think I need gentoo for some reason, when its the other way around for real
[17:34:43] <kensington> if you decide to leave, i hope you find something that suits you - of course there's other projects that operate in ways that you prefer
[17:34:50] <wltjr> after all if it wasn't for me, gentoo would not be legal, it would not have a bank account, no by laws, etc, others could have done all that, but it never happened, the by laws were a draft for years
[17:35:06] <wltjr> kensington: there are many, I have been around this for years, many have wanted to me to contribute I keep saying hat
[17:35:37] <wltjr> I had job offers from RH, and one of the guys I know who was trying to get me over to RH has been promoted several times, he is pretty high up
[17:35:50] <wltjr> met fedora, bsd, others at LWE and other events many times
[17:36:11] <kensington> of course there's always room for improvement - but gentoo is what it is
[17:36:19] <wltjr> worked with upstreams etc, mentioned in some books, like the tomcat guide from oreilly for tomcat on gentoo etc
[17:36:42] <kensington> historically people that try to fundamentally change things to their way of thinking are not well received
[17:36:48] <wltjr> kensington: people are afraid of the changes that might come with me being involved, so they use excuses to keep me out
[17:37:01] <wltjr> kensington: for real last time it was because I disliked devrel, and now you have comrel
[17:37:18] <wltjr> kensington: so many thigns I brought up and got bashed for, others ended up doing or bringing up again later its really funny
[17:37:27] <wltjr> kensington: it wasnt my way of thinking
[17:37:34] <wltjr> I was elected as a trustee
[17:38:01] <wltjr> more liked my thoughts than disliked, it was just the few that drowed out the others and when devrel acted on 1 developers complaints it made it that much worse
[17:38:13] <wltjr> kensington: I even said in my manifesto do not vote for me and people did
[17:38:33] <wltjr> kensington: I talked to Daniel, the creator, I know his original vision, it sad its been lost
[17:38:34] <kensington> certainly comrel/devrel is not perfect, but i don't think it's fair to accuse them of applying different rules to different people
[17:38:43] <wltjr> kensington: it is literally the case
[17:39:12] <wltjr> kensington:  the thigns that have been happening to me have not happened to ANYONE else from the actions devrel took back in the day, to the mistakes they made, them not following their own policies etc
[17:39:22] <wltjr> kensington: its because a few individuals have the control
[17:39:33] <wltjr> kensington: coucil does not review devrel/comrel actions, they go unchecked
[17:39:52] <wltjr> in theory you can appeal to the council, but that is bringing social matters to a technical body, I am not sure that has ever happened
[17:40:04] <kensington> that's just plain false
[17:40:29] <wltjr> kensington: show me otherwise, any links to appeals?
[17:40:52] <wltjr> kensington: but it is the flat out truth, its the recruiters preventing me from returning, how many of those are there/
[17:41:04] <kensington> it's up to each individual to appeal, I can't say why any particular person chooses to or not to appeal
[17:41:12] <wltjr> kensington: are they asking the developer community? or the council or just amongst themselves?
[17:41:21] <wltjr> kensington: have you seen an appeal?
[17:41:37] <wltjr> kensington: do you have knowledge of an appeal every taking place
[17:41:44] <wltjr> s/every/ever
[17:42:08] <kensington> what is your point? the council can review comrel actions if it receives an appeal
[17:42:27] <wltjr> kensington: again when jlec came to me yesterday and brought up social issues, who did he talk to? the community? a few people or many?
[17:42:39] <wltjr> kensington: that is a theory to my knowledge it has NEVER happened
[17:43:01] <wltjr> kensington: because the actions of comrel/devrel are so harmful they turn people off, why bother with gentoo, with appeal, just move on as they do
[17:43:22] <wltjr> kensington: look what exists because of gentoo, exherbo, funtoo, etc, that is gentoo's fault, fractured their own community
[17:43:43] <wltjr> kensington: but again you can say what ever, gentoo has been perverted
[17:44:14] <wltjr> kensington: daniel would never have handed things over to the foundation if he knew the future, gentoo now is NOT what it was intended to be, its sad those invovled can't realize such
[17:44:59] <kensington> he made his choice, perhaps things didn't end up how he envisioned (who knows?) but this is where we are
[17:45:04] <wltjr> now I am not a big fan of his, he screwed me when he last returned, I was supportive of him, and he just moved on and went forward with funtoo, but I can't blame him for the name, gentoo is anything but, and its the atmosphere that makes it such
[17:45:33] <wltjr> kensington: but it can change, gentoo can either get back to its roots, live up to its potential and be what it was intended to be, or continue to fall apart
[17:45:47] <wltjr> what I have seen over the past 7 years from the outside is falling apart, is that what I want? hell no
[17:46:01] <wltjr> FYI I never wanted to be a developer then or now, why did I become one?
[17:46:06] <kensington> I think you will find many who would say this sort of stuff ^ is what takes the fun out of gentoo
[17:46:50] <wltjr> because stuff was not being updated... plain and simple, so I started contributing, after I left I hoped others would come, at times some did for a few things, but only short periods and over time most things have been neglected, I am not sure if anyone will come, and as more time passes the stuff gets older, it will interest less and less
[17:47:09] <kensington> bickering puts existing developers off, much less new ones
[17:47:17] <wltjr> kensington: would any of this exist if jlec processed me yesterday? there would have been less noise yesterday and today
[17:47:29] <wltjr> kensington: exactly my point comrel causes drama, the bad attitude, takes the fun out, etc
[17:47:41] <wltjr> we are not learning, not improving, etc
[17:47:55] <wltjr> kensington: you don't need to tell me this, understand when I joined the java team there was barely 2 active devs
[17:47:57] <kensington> that's pretty rude to try and blame jlec for your own behaviour
[17:48:11] <wltjr> kensington: I got many other devs on board, we had active meetings I helped to start and organize etc
[17:48:21] <wltjr> kensington: he brought up the social stuff, I kept it all business
[17:48:32] <wltjr> kensington: I simply said lets setup a time for review
[17:48:39] <kensington> whether you like it or not, social stuff is business for gentoo
[17:48:55] <wltjr> kensington: it really is not, many maintain stuff and do not socialize with others
[17:49:01] <Philantrop> wltjr: I have appealed against being kicked out. cf. https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=216219#c17 and https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168573#c21 and https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237381
[17:49:04] <wltjr> that was my plan for a long time, just silently commit and udpate stuff
[17:49:15] <wltjr> Philantrop: hahaha did anything come of that? :)
[17:49:35] <Philantrop> wltjr: Well, I was told I'm an asshole and that was that. :-)
[17:49:40] <wltjr> Philantrop: might be talking to you about joining exherbo but given how much java work needs to be done there, might go else where, really thinking freebsd
[17:50:22] <wltjr> Philantrop: you are, but I am one as well :) but we have nothing to contribute technically, either way because we are assholes we can't be part of gentoo, no gentoo dev now or ever has been an asshole :P
[17:50:44] <wltjr> kensington: have I made any noise on mailing list? brought this bs to the larger community? I could easily
[17:50:49] <Philantrop> wltjr: Pretty much, yes. :-)
[17:51:03] <wltjr> kensington: I am trying to make as little noise as possible, do what is necessary to get back on and get to work ASAP
[17:51:07] <kensington> you're making an awful lot of noise here
[17:51:26] <wltjr> kensington: yes becase this is the only place that controls the gates, this is home of the gatekeepers
[17:51:38] <wltjr> kensington: I can post to -project if you like, I was requested to by others on a security bug
[17:52:00] <wltjr> kensington: I can make serious noise if you like, and with my comments I guarantee other developers will care about how I have been treated
[17:52:24] <wltjr> bottom line, GENTOO CREATES PEOPLES ATTITUDES, that is why gentoo is plagued by social problems that do not hold back the rest of the FOSS world but gentoo is stuck dealing with the same year after year
[17:52:31] <kensington> I have to wonder how serious you really after - after being about concerns about your behaviour, you prove those concerns true
[17:52:58] <wltjr> I mean how many have bad attitudes, me, Philantrop, all of exherbo, etc wow, are all all that similar, doubtful, when differnet people run into the same problem, maybe its not the people
[17:53:43] <wltjr> but Gentoo will never self reflect, are we doing anything wrong to hurt ourselves, hell no, gentoo has a ego like we are gods, everything we do is perfect, and we are models of how others should act socialy, and a project that is leading the FOSS world technically....
[17:54:15] <wltjr> kensington: you just proved my point, if you create a toxic atmosphere, you will get toxic attitudes from me and others :)
[17:54:24] <wltjr> shall I repeat? or loop?
[17:54:24] <kensington> gentoo and exherbo both attract different types of people, and there's nothing wrong with that
[17:54:37] <wltjr> kensington: NO, most of exherbo came from Gentoo
[17:54:52] <wltjr> kensington: I recongize most all names and used to see them committing to gentoo and I worked with several
[17:55:21] <wltjr> kloeri was a MUCH better recruiter and teacher than anyone i have come across invovled in gentoo recruiting since
[17:55:55] <wltjr> I have been aroudn gentoo since 2003, and was a developer 2006-2008, plus LWE, etc, been around for some time
[17:56:10] <wltjr> in fact those who first told me about gentoo I can't even get them to look at it
[17:56:42] <wltjr> these days I tell people don't run gentoo, I am question why I still am
[17:57:22] <wltjr> kensington: so back to comrel, right now its up to them to help me become a dev and make allot of contributions to gentoo, or I can go away and they can wait for another to come if one does, its comrel/recruiters choice, no other body, thus I am here
[17:57:26] <kensington> why do you, if you hate it so much?
[17:57:46] <wltjr> kensington: I don't hate gentoo, I hate what a few people have been doing to hurt it for years now
[17:57:59] <wltjr> kensington: I can either help change gentoo for the better, or walk away
[17:59:01] <wltjr> its in my best interest to walk for sure, I am self employed my busienss suffered in 2006-2008 with my contributions to gentoo, given the decline in the economy after I might have gone under if I stayd, I have done better since not being invovled, its really not a good business decision for me
[17:59:25] <wltjr> but from a technical perspective as a developer, I really like aspects of gentoo and have a hard time wanting to run binaries someone else made etc
[17:59:43] <wltjr> but I do have an option freebsd, or others
[17:59:55] <kensington> it seems you have two options really
[18:00:16] <wltjr> kensington: I have many, but in general for gentoo yes, continue on, or move on
[18:00:21] <wltjr> kensington: that is up to comrel not me
[18:00:31] <kensington> you can either stop complaining here and prove yourself by sharing your many valuable contributions, or petition the council that comrel is being mean to you
[18:00:44] <wltjr> kensington: have you not seen my post on java-config port to C?
[18:01:00] <wltjr> I just contributed oracle-javamail, and tomcat 8 would have gone into tree yesterday had I not lost time
[18:01:17] <wltjr> I bumped a few packages a while back in bugzilla that went no where, that was not very encouraging
[18:01:34] <wltjr> kensington: ask any active java dev if they would benefit from my return
[18:01:51] <wltjr> I have massive things to contribute, not just java, perl ebuilds, assp, ipv6 patched qmail ebuild
[18:02:06] <wltjr> not to mention packages to update, remove, tons of house cleaning
[18:02:42] <wltjr> kensington: once i ported java stuff from python to C i planned to move on to other things, not sure if I would do eselect or equery next
[18:03:00] <wltjr> also planned to rebuild java team, get meetings going, get more devs on board etc
[18:03:22] <wltjr> but I have no personal or business benefit from that stuff, gentoo has allot to gain, me very little if anything
[18:03:58] <wltjr> its not a matter of me proving myself, its a matter of others helping out and getting out of the way of progress
[18:04:18] <kensington> well, I wish you all the best in your future endeavours
[18:04:22] <wltjr> had jlec set a time with me yesterday no drama then or today, I would be committing vs bitching :)
[18:04:41] <wltjr> kensington: are you part of comrel? should I take that as comrels offical stance?
[18:04:54] <kensington> as i said before, it's not nice to blame other people for your own behaviour
[18:05:21] <wltjr> I do not care about being nice, I care about getting shit done.... they two do not go hand in hand
[18:05:29] <wltjr> kensington: are others being nice to me? ask yourself that
[18:05:35] <wltjr> the golden rule....
[18:06:01] <kensington> i'm not part of comrel, that's just my personal opinion
[18:06:06] <wltjr> I showed jlec and others respect, I did what was required, did I get respect in return? or did I get attitude and roadblocks?
[18:06:22] <wltjr> kensington: well I would not recommend discouraging people from anything, maybe you like doing such
[18:06:35] <wltjr> its best to be supportive and positive
[18:06:52] <kensington> you could try taking your own advice
[18:06:52] <wltjr> if I saw someone in my situation I would be supportive and ecouraging, not making comments like maybe you and gentoo are not right for each other etc
[18:07:14] <wltjr> kensington: I am, I give positive reinforcment, have you ever worked with me? do you have any idea how i actually conduct myself?
[18:07:27] <wltjr> no one in here does they just assume and pass judgement without knowing
[18:07:41] <kensington> it's not necessarily a bad thing, there are many projects I would not be a good fit for
[18:07:45] <wltjr> kensington: I would never say the things you said to me to anyone
[18:07:57] <wltjr> I would never tell someone they are not right for something
[18:08:13] <wltjr> kensington: maybe those involved with comrel are not a good fit?
[18:08:25] <wltjr> kensington: maybe those leading gentoo are not a good fit
[18:08:35] <wltjr> oh wait gentoo can do no wrong
[18:08:49] <wltjr> everyone on comrel works in hr or recruiting for their profession I forgot
[18:09:06] <kensington> that's just reality, there's no way to avoid the fact that not everything goes together
[18:09:52] <wltjr> kensington: you became a dev in 2012, I would not expect you to understand, how long have you been around gentoo?
[18:10:12] <wltjr> this is part of the problem, the new culture has no respect for those that came before, no respect
[18:10:34] <wltjr> last night at my lug meeting I met a few that I had not in 10+ years, but they were part of the LUG before me, I showed them respect
[18:10:41] <kensington> not that it means anything, but i remember looking forward to the 1.4 release
[18:10:48] <wltjr> I have no idea what they contributed, they might have been jerks, etc who cares they came before me
[18:11:45] <wltjr> kensington: is your interest in gentoo business or personal?
[18:11:50] <kensington> respect is earned, not doled out based on some arbitrary seniority
[18:12:18] <wltjr> that also tends to be a differing factor, I did not work with many who had personal interest in gentoo, most had business interests
[18:12:36] <wltjr> kensington: dude I earned it, its not my fault people do not know the history and have no respect
[18:12:56] <wltjr> kensington: its not my fault you are not aware of the things I did, if you google its easy to see
[18:13:20] <wltjr> my name is all over, docs, by laws, some of the last press gentoo got, etc
[18:13:35] <wltjr> grep tree for my name in changelogs etc
[18:13:39] <kensington> I won't comment on your past, but your current behaviour is not conducive to earning respect
[18:13:39] <wltjr> simple stuff
[18:13:59] <wltjr> kensington: again how was my behavior before jlec brought that stuff up?
[18:14:14] <wltjr> if you punch someone in the face and they hit you back, you cannot accuse them of being violent
[18:14:29] <wltjr> no one is helping me to return, but instead doing the opposite making it more and more difficult
[18:14:43] <wltjr> but that has NO effect on anyones attitude right? people are just supposed to put up with that
[18:14:50] <kensington> clearly there were some concerns about your past behaviour
[18:14:52] <wltjr> kensington: I am being treated now just as any other recruit?
[18:14:58] <wltjr> kensington: YEARS AGO
[18:15:13] <wltjr> and they create a situation to bring that back, but I am not acting out of line, no insults, not foul language, etc
[18:15:16] <kensington> which were obviously warranted based on your current behaviour
[18:15:23] <wltjr> no posts to mailing list, not making this any bigger
[18:15:30] <wltjr> kensington: what behavior?
[18:15:44] <wltjr> kensington: because I am not rolling over and taking it?
[18:16:03] <wltjr> kensington: so its normal for recruiting a developer to bring up the past?
[18:16:10] <wltjr> that is part of the recruitment process for everyone?
[18:16:21] <wltjr> what if someone had bad behviour on another project?
[18:16:33] <wltjr> I am not being treated as others
[18:16:50] <kensington> i am fairly certain the behaviour of every recruit is assessed
[18:17:04] <wltjr> kensington: its not, where is that mentioned in the docs?
[18:17:27] <wltjr> kensington: I have never seen that before, and I had been through this process before, and again I helped caster, ali_bush, fordforg all become devs
[18:18:47] <kensington> why would you have? each recruiter assesses new recruits according to their own judgement
[18:18:53] <wltjr> my attitude is that I am still trying to help improve things despite all the barriers I am being presented with, that shows a fair level of patience, I have not taken this to the larger community, let me dig up the bug where others wanted me to, none of those people are here, and others do and will care if I post to a list
[18:19:04] <wltjr> kensington: exactly my point
[18:19:21] <wltjr> kensington: so one person can make a choice, that is not how community things should be done
[18:19:27] <wltjr> kensington: gentoo does not belong to 1 person
[18:19:33] <wltjr> its should never be up to 1 person
[18:19:58] <wltjr> why I keep saying a few hold gentoo back
[18:20:12] <kensington> I can't speak for the them, but I would expect there is some sort of team consensus behind such things
[18:21:21] <wltjr> anyway I have work to do, recruiters if you want to process me let me know, if you do not want me to be part of gentoo, just say that, I want an official comment from comrel collectively, I do not want to continue making noise, I am not posting to list, etc I will eitehr come on board and get to work silently or go away just the same, its up to comrel please let me know ASAP thank you for your conside
[18:21:27] <wltjr> ration and cooperation
[18:21:55] <wltjr> kensington: nope rarely the case, and I havent' the time or interest to appeal to council etc
[18:23:01] <kensington> you can't speak for their processes either
[18:24:01] <wltjr> kensington: I am aware, again I suggested ways to improve to past leadership, which was heard since devrel went away...
[18:24:37] <wltjr> kensington: I am done, I made my last comment in here to comrel, they can process me or say no and I will go away very simple nothing more needs to be said
[18:25:17] <wltjr> comrel/recruiters contact me if you want to proceed, I will have fordfrog/my mentor reopen developer bug, etc the formal process otherwise why bother if its not going to happen
[19:02:22] --> pacho2 (~pacho@gentoo/developer/pacho) hat #gentoo-comrel betreten
[19:02:22] *** Modus #gentoo-comrel +o pacho2 by ChanServ
[22:46:31] <creffett|irssi> kensington: don't feed the trolls
[23:24:50] <wltjr> jlec: btw to bad you werent in java today VERY different picture... ;) tomcat 8 will be in tree soon, and looks like the java team will have a meeting soon, and a VERY positive atmosphere
[23:25:07] <wltjr> nice to be calling people names as well, that is a good attitude right :)
[00:00:00] - {Tageswechsel: Freitag, 20. Februar 2015}
[00:38:15] <jmbsvicetto> wltjr: Please stop spamming us with your comments about devrel. Besides you being wrong, all of us have understood a long time ago your opinion
[00:39:10] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have been part of the problem for a very long time, I should have known to even attempt to come back when you were around
[00:39:42] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: again I awaiting a response, only reason I am still in here
[00:39:57] <jmbsvicetto> Yeah, I know very well your opinion and given all the spam in the past couple of days, it's obvious you haven't learned anything since 2008
[00:40:15] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you can think that, and neither has gentoo nor you....
[00:40:37] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you literally are NOT good for gentoo, bad things have happened with you involved
[00:40:51] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I have been aware I watched you move around in gentoo
[00:41:07] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I still remember me getting you involved with the foundation elections when I became a trustee
[00:41:49] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: do you know how little has changed in java and in portage since 2008? is that a good thing?
[00:42:20] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: why are you even talking to me if its not positive and constructive? or anyone? is anyone trying to help or just add fule to the fire for real?
[00:42:32] <wltjr> where is the positive attitude in here?
[00:42:47] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: its really funny how last time you were against my comments about devrel and its GONE....
[00:42:54] <jmbsvicetto> I've been around long enough to have seen your actions and I have a very good memory, so "history rewriting" with me won't fly
[00:42:55] <wltjr> merged into comrel, if I was wrong why did that happen?
[00:43:07] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I was around before you, and I have seen what you have done to gentoo since
[00:43:21] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I predate you, and you have forgotten much
[00:43:34] <jmbsvicetto> wltjr: devrel isn't gone. Devrel and userrel were merged into comrel. All that devrel did, is still being done by comrel
[00:43:56] <wltjr> its changed, its not the same thing, but you can tell yourself that
[00:44:27] <wltjr> I read all about the -rels back in the day, I had opposition to them, part of why I did not get process in 2010 and 2011, people in devrel did not want me to get rid of that entity destroyin gentoo
[00:44:42] <wltjr> debian doesn't have that, nor others, its what is killing gentoo
[00:44:58] <jmbsvicetto> right, you that have been out of Gentoo since 2008, who iirc were never even part of devrel, know more about it and Comrel than me. As I said, you haven't changed a bit
[00:45:02] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: less you forget I resigned as a trustee and left as a developer, I was NEVER kicked out etc, and it was devrels actions why I left entirely
[00:45:20] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: and devrel made MANY mistakes, like some of the bans were never lifted, that was not acceptable and people appologized to me
[00:45:33] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: not to mention the person who complained to devrel retracted that, do you even reacall who it was? i do :)
[00:45:49] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I have not been a dev, do you think I have not paid any attentin to gentoo?
[00:46:04] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: maybe grep the tree for wlt and bugzilla and check dates > 2008
[00:46:08] <jmbsvicetto> Oh and fyi, I was on both DevRel and UserRel and was one of the people behind the merge
[00:46:26] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: and you have been on council, infra, and just about everywhere else, just like Betelguuse
[00:46:39] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I saw the presentation you gave with him, HORRIBLE, on the future of gentoo etc
[00:47:01] <jmbsvicetto> You weren't kicked out in 2008, but given your actions later, there was a decision by DevRel to mark you has having been kicked so that DevRel Lead would have veto power whenever you tried to join again
[00:47:14] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I literally do blame you specifically and Betelgeuse who I respected for years when I worked with him, but his contributions stopped, he got involved in coucil had a bunch of titles in gentoo and did very little
[00:47:26] <wltjr> like betelgeuse is lead of libbash, so you can bet it won't go anywhere
[00:47:41] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I was NEVER kicked out, go look at the bug
[00:47:49] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I resigned from the foundation, on the -nfp list
[00:47:49] <jmbsvicetto> That talk was with both Betelgeuse and NeddySeagoon
[00:47:55] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: on my bug I said retire me
[00:48:14] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you fool, i was kicked out please.... devrel NEVER had anything close to being able to kick me out
[00:48:29] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: others commented on my bug for me not to leave like solar
[00:49:01] <jmbsvicetto> I just told you that you weren't kicked out, but because of your actions later when you tried to rejoin, which include a few "threats", DevRel had a vote about treating you has having been kicked out
[00:49:19] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: it was a bad presentation, that is not anything personal to you
[00:49:37] <jmbsvicetto> Yes, and at the time I talked to rane about us doing like we were starting to do and give you 15 days to rethink your retirement
[00:49:55] <wltjr> see so you all took action after I left to prevent my return, that is really nice to know
[00:50:09] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: that was not it at all
[00:50:17] <wltjr> i was banned for 15 days from committing
[00:50:25] <wltjr> why? because I made 1 post to -nfp after being banned
[00:50:55] <wltjr> the post was one out of disgust given what I just did for the foundation, and that I was harassed into resigning, then I get banned from the list, no one even cared about till I started posting on there
[00:51:15] <wltjr> then a week later devrel shows up because 1 dev complained, the mailing list ban was over 1 complaint from 1 person, that is NOT policy
[00:51:26] <jmbsvicetto> Contratry to what you've been trying to argue for the past couple of days, the most important attribute to evalute on anyone trying to join is their behaviour. We can live with people with weak technical skills. We can't live with people that keep attacking others, can't work with others and when things don't go their way start making "threats"
[00:51:27] <wltjr> and you do not treat a former trustee that way period
[00:51:45] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: then why do the quizzes not have behavioral questions
[00:51:51] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: do you realize your pissing in the wind?
[00:51:54] <jmbsvicetto> wltjr: If you go read your bug again, the comment about your 15 days ban was posted by me
[00:52:09] <wltjr> tech people are notorious for bad behaviour, so gentoo is screwing itself right there, all other project deal
[00:52:28] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: but even you said it yourself, all the bad behavior came after I left
[00:52:38] <wltjr> fact is if devrel did nothing, there would be no bad behavior
[00:53:06] <wltjr> devrel, jmbsvicetto and others part of devrel created the bad attitude which remains? why because you people haven't changed
[00:53:09] <jmbsvicetto> Yes, the bad behaviour showed up after you got banned
[00:53:19] <wltjr> so i was never a problem as a developer
[00:53:29] <wltjr> the bad behavior is a result of devrel
[00:53:41] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have poor people skills, that is personal, that shows in the presentation
[00:53:50] <jmbsvicetto> At the point, no one felt like you needed to be kicked out or was trying to do that. It was your complete "blow-up" reaction, together with the threats that were done later that have lead to that
[00:53:54] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have NO business NO qualifications for relations
[00:54:10] <wltjr> I could not have been kicked out
[00:54:27] <wltjr> and again, my attitude comes from devrel/comrel, get that entity out of my life and never any problems from me
[00:54:34] <wltjr> I had a major technical issue with a former developer
[00:54:38] <jmbsvicetto> wltjr: As expected I see you haven't changed a bit.
[00:54:43] <wltjr> I am palestinian, he is jewish in israel....
[00:54:50] <wltjr> we worked it out via robbat2, NEVER devrel
[00:55:05] <wltjr> since 2003, I have NEVER EVER seen devrel do anything that benefitted gentoo, any action took hurt gentoo
[00:55:06] <jmbsvicetto> wltjr: Therefore, I have better things to spend my time
[00:55:19] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: again you can think so
[00:55:27] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: again go grep the tree, go look in bugzilla
[00:56:00] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: but you haven't change, and the crap you started in 2008 with me persists because of you, leave comrel move on, let new blood come in, stop holding on to the past and causing it to repeat
[00:56:07] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you NEVER worked with me ever
[00:56:15] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you cannot comment on anything about such
[00:56:27] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you have ONLY socialized with me, thus wasting my time and the rest
[00:57:03] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: actually I did see you working once in java on mutli lib stuff, that wasn't necessary and no clue what you were doing nor others
[00:57:26] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I recall looking at your cia.vc stats when that was live, you hardly contribute actual code and stuff
[00:57:44] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: I think when I left in 2008 I had more commits and activities
[00:58:07] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: are there docs from you on gentoo.org? not comrel/devrel/council infra stuff, like my tomcat guides, or any of the gentoo java stuff I helped with back in the day
[00:58:39] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: you helped to drive away someone who possible contributed at least as much as you did maybe more, and that you NEVER worked with, you did not help me stay, you gave me reason to leave
[00:59:17] <wltjr> I seriously hesitated before starting the process again because I saw you jmbsvicetto were still part of comrel, guess i should have waited till you moved on if that ever happens...
[00:59:36] <jmbsvicetto> wltjr: Stop spamming our channel
[00:59:39] <wltjr> I so knew better, and things were proceeding with jlec till he talked to someone I can only assume, since the ohters are newer
[00:59:44] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: its NOT YOUR CHANNEL
[00:59:50] <wltjr> its a community channel, and I am still a foundation member fool
[01:00:00] <jmbsvicetto> If you want to stay here and wait for an answer, do it. But stop wasting our time
[01:00:07] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: this belongs to the GENTOO FOUNDATION and it a public freenode channel and its hardly spam
[01:00:14] <wltjr> jmbsvicetto: if you don't like it, ingore it your IRC client should support
[01:00:19] *** Modus #gentoo-comrel +b wltjr!*@* by dilfridge
[01:03:34] <-- wltjr (~wltjr@unaffiliated/wltjr) hat #gentoo-comrel verlassen