From what I've heard; this was done intentionally; and thats fine. But I think the community deserves to know it's happening and why. The last thing anyone wants is to realize that devmanual.gentoo.org is dead and then think up 80 million conspiracy theories as to who and why. So if it could be posted here; that would be helpful imho, as well as tracking the status of the issue.
Also as an aside; My intention for this bug is not to have everyone voice their opinion on font size, or how good or not good the manual was; the bug is to be a place for what I hope to be facts on what happened and why; not some dumping ground for rants against anyone. I'd prefer if people held off on the conspiracy theories and whatnot until more information is available. Also since the devmanual is currently under QA I will CC them; as well as plasmaroo since he is the current maintainer.
It was done intentionally (by me) because someone pitched a fit about a relatively small (but valid) problem with the license and the way we were distributing it. This person has a history of making trouble for Gentoo, so I decided to pull it (temporarily) until we can mollify said person so he doesn't escalate this any further than it already has been. I will gladly put the record back if/when the foundation or the council decide that it should be, or when we've taken care of the issues raised by the complainant. And, for the record, the fact that we have to do this is asinine and goes to further show how destructive this one person is to the overall Gentoo community. Now he can weigh in with his word-twisting bullshit, like he always does...
I still do not get why we not just move the big "Editor" from the front page to contributors and leave the manual available to the community. There is a simple problem that can be fixed easily. Please do not make it look like a problem. The problem was created by us when removing the manual. I have fixed the problems with the manual here, it took like two minutes. Until we manage to setup something on gentoo svn, we can use this URL where I am uploading my copy: http://dev.gentoo.org/~genstef/devmanual/
I'm not trying to create problems on this, but I see the scrollback in #gentoo-dev so I'll post here for interested parties: 1. The sources for the document are off the gentoo infrastructure, so we "host" it in the sense that one of our boxes pulls in from the svn repo that's off-site. 2. The document is not Gentoo-branded in any way, shape or form (see anything on docs.gentoo.org for an example of Gentoo-branding) 3. This is the most important: the document, as is, violates the license under which it was released. That is to say, every single contributor should be listed as prominently as every other contributor. This is not the case as it stands. Note that by properly Gentoo-branding it (bringing it into GuideXML form and appropriately skinning it) would remove this issue entirely. From a trustee point of view (I know I'm not officially a trustee, but that's a separate conversation), I prefer that the pointer is yanked while Gentoo is "distributing" the document in violation of its license. The best thing to do is not distribute it. Additionally, I'm uncomfortable with a document being written and maintained off the Gentoo servers by unknown people. When it's on the Gentoo servers, we can track changes and edits to it. Currently, we are blind to those, because we simply pull from the outside repo. So, maybe this all seems silly to everyone, and I do apologise for that perception, but Ciaran was very correct. Please note that the did not approach Gentoo inappropriately (the only complaint would be that he did not CC qa@ and infra@ but did CC a bunch of others who are not related to the issue). Please also understand that in order for Gentoo to maintain its integrity, we need to fix any issues where we are violating license. So, to those who believe we can just change the html - you're right we can, but the next svn pull simply overwrites those changes and we are back where we started. It's better we fix this issue once and properly.
What I just sent to the -dev list. Hopefully this'll clear up some of the fud: Ok, for the sake of transparency... Here's the request I sent. I only did so after having being ignored repeatedly and deliberately by plasmaroo, who refuses to even acknowledge that I've asked him to fix things. You'll note that nowhere did I demand that Kurt immediately pull everything and start making a fuss in public. A simple "yes, there's a problem, and we'll get it fixed within the next few days" would have been fine. I deliberately kept this private because fixing a few very simple things should not involve huge arguments in public. Ideally it'd just involve a quick /query on IRC... As for why attribution matters... Aside from the legal issue, the *only* thing any of the devmanual authors get for having written it is to get their name on it. There's no pay, no rewards. Replacing the cover page author list with the name of one guy who didn't contribute anything in a huge font is just about the most impressive "screw you" one could possibly give to a volunteer. Meh, but since this has been brought out in public, here's the full text. Hopefully it'll help dispel some of the fud a few people are spreading: ===== Following up upon my previous post [3] and requests over IRC, which have not yet been resolved: The "Gentoo Development Guide" (devmanual), which is being hosted on a gentoo.org domain at [1], is being distributed in violation of its licence. The devmanual is distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 licence [2], which has the following to say in 4c: "at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such other comparable authorship credit." Note in particular "at least as prominent as". The current cover page does not follow this requirement. It lists Tim Yamin as 'Editor', with myself in smaller type below, and does not include any of the other original authors (and copyright holders) with the same prominence. Please either restore the author credits to their original form or cease from distributing the devmanual. It is my understanding that between the listed Editor, QA, devrel, the Council, the Foundation and the people maintaining the gentoo.org website, at least one available person should be able to make this change -- if not, please let me know whom I should contact. I realise that it may take a few days to make the change; in any case, please notify me of your intentions as soon as reasonably possible. Many thanks, [1] http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ [2] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ [3] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=gentoo-dev&m=114850574909268&w=2 =====
(In reply to comment #4) > Additionally, I'm uncomfortable with a document being written and maintained > off the Gentoo servers by unknown people. When it's on the Gentoo servers, we > can track changes and edits to it. Currently, we are blind to those, because we > simply pull from the outside repo. Especially when it is being quoted more and more as official rules. Would there be any problem with what's distributed on devmanual.gentoo.org being hosted on svn.gentoo.org, where it can have it's on repository (and hence its own access control)?
(In reply to comment #6) > Especially when it is being quoted more and more as official rules. Would > there be any problem with what's distributed on devmanual.gentoo.org being > hosted on svn.gentoo.org, where it can have it's on repository (and hence its > own access control)? I've discussed this with infra at the council's request, and the conclusion was that it could easily be hosted in a gentoo svn repository if desired. Conversion to GuideXML would be a significantly larger task, and according to my recollection would ideally involve additions to the GuideXML spec. Not sure whether the last point has changed in the intervening time though.
(In reply to comment #7) > according to > my recollection would ideally involve additions to the GuideXML spec. Not sure > whether the last point has changed in the intervening time though. Actually, the XSL we use was updated some time ago to allow for the code examples in the doc. In particular, we added support so that things like Code Listing 2.7 are possible: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xml-guide.xml#doc_chap2 This should fit the bill.
(In reply to comment #6) > Especially when it is being quoted more and more as official rules. Would > there be any problem with what's distributed on devmanual.gentoo.org being > hosted on svn.gentoo.org, where it can have it's on repository (and hence its > own access control)? svn repository 'devmanual' has been created and is accessable by every developer. You can fill it if you want or leave it if you want to take another way.
Created attachment 99013 [details] devmanual/trunk/index.html Revision 82 as per wolf31o2's request...
Created attachment 99014 [details] devmanual/trunk/appendices/contributors/index.html rev 82.
OK. Until we can figure out who is supposed to have access to the devmanual, we've limited it to the council and spb + christel (at spb's request) for write access. I had jkt generate a new html set, since my "convert" wants to segfault (yay!) when trying to generate the html myself. All that we need now is for someone on Infra to copy these files into place on warbler and to set DNS back up.
I thought we were also going to GuideXML'ify these docs? Also, as far as I know, we didn't have anything to do (other than providing the box) with the original setup....anyone around who knows what exactly needs to be done? Tim?
The files simply need to be copied over the current files, and DNS needs to be fixed. As for making it GuideXML, that's not a concern for getting the manual back up, and will be something to be investigated separately. Right now, our main concern is complying with the license and making the devmanual available again.
fixed.
Mmm, I'm not so sure that this is fixed. Yes, the difference in prominence is gone, but now the names have been moved off exclusively to an appendix. Is this really "credit reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing"? With a book, the names of the authors are on the cover, not hidden away at the end.
(In reply to comment #16) > Is this really "credit reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing"? Yes, it is. hth & hand.
As stated, the devmanual will be transormed to GuideXML and given Gentoo branding, making this question a moot point. The immediate concern was to remove the license violation, which has been done. Your last question is a matter of tase/preference rather than anything legal, in my opinion, but even so, the devmanual in its current form is, at best, a temporary thing.
(In reply to comment #18) > As stated, the devmanual will be transormed to GuideXML and given Gentoo > branding, making this question a moot point. The immediate concern was to > remove the license violation, which has been done. Your last question is a > matter of tase/preference rather than anything legal, in my opinion, but even > so, the devmanual in its current form is, at best, a temporary thing. Well, the question is whether by fixing one violation it now violates a different part of the licence (the first bit of 4c). Is it really unreasonable to request that the full author list be restored to the front page, where it used to be and where it was when most contributions were originally received?
Depends on the people editing it, but I would rather spend less energy on the doc as it is, and more energy putting it in its required format, which takes care of 4c, 5d, and 58e.
(In reply to comment #20) > Depends on the people editing it, but I would rather spend less energy on the > doc as it is, and more energy putting it in its required format, which takes > care of 4c, 5d, and 58e. Really, how much energy does it take to restore the authors list to the front page?
Because everyone obviously loves to scroll thru the one-page worth list of contributors every time he opens the index page, right. :P
(In reply to comment #22) > Because everyone obviously loves to scroll thru the one-page worth list of > contributors every time he opens the index page, right. :P Eh, reorder the sections if that's your only objection.
current setup looks fine to me and as Klieber said: Yes, it is.
jakub is right -- the primary purpose of this manual is to assist developers with various Gentoo bits and pieces. It is not primarily intended to stroke your ego. Nobody wants to scroll through an entire page of authors just to get to the content. if you're so intent on putting your name in lights, ciaran, convert it to GuideXML so it looks like the rest of our documentation. That will make you happy and it will make us happy. Gosh, that would mean we all win! Otherwise, I believe we fully comply with the terms of the license that the devmanual was originally released under and will not be spending any more time copying files over that serve only to ego-stroke.
How much does it take for you to get over it until it's properly sorted, or are you deliberately just trying to push and push at this point? Please, let it go, already.
(In reply to comment #25) > jakub is right -- the primary purpose of this manual is to assist developers > with various Gentoo bits and pieces. It is not primarily intended to stroke > your ego. In fact, Jakub didn't say anything about Ciaran or his ego. OTOH, I don't see what's wrong with giving us (author and contributors) little ego boost. > Nobody wants to scroll through an entire page of authors just to get > to the content. So, like was already mentioned, put the list at the bottom of the page. > Otherwise, I believe we fully comply with the terms of the license that the > devmanual was originally released under and will not be spending any more time > copying files over that serve only to ego-stroke. Really, Kurt, it is not about ego-stroke, but more of giving proper credit. The way it is right now - Prominently labeled as "Apendices" section, with no mention that it is autors list, it's just wrong.
or just leave it as is and get over it
(In reply to comment #28) > or just leave it as is and get over it Or just fix it. Acceptable fix was mentioned and is easy to implement.
(In reply to comment #25) > jakub is right -- the primary purpose of this manual is to assist developers > with various Gentoo bits and pieces. It is not primarily intended to stroke > your ego. Nobody wants to scroll through an entire page of authors just to get > to the content. This is not about ego stoking. This is about giving proper attribution. The only payment anyone receives for contributing to the devmanual is to get their name on it. > if you're so intent on putting your name in lights, ciaran, convert it to > GuideXML so it looks like the rest of our documentation. That will make you > happy and it will make us happy. Gosh, that would mean we all win! After the amount of work I've already put into the devmanual, and the piss poor treatment I've received from you and a few others, I hardly feel inclined to contribute further. Perhaps if you wanted people to help out with Gentoo, you should consider not treating them like dirt. > Otherwise, I believe we fully comply with the terms of the license that the > devmanual was originally released under and will not be spending any more time > copying files over that serve only to ego-stroke. And I believe you're conforming neither to the letter nor the spirit of the licence.(In reply to comment #26) > How much does it take for you to get over it until it's properly sorted, or are > you deliberately just trying to push and push at this point? Please, let it > go, already. It's quite simple. All I want is for proper credit to be given.
ah, you're breaking my heart there was a license issue with not all the names being on the same page: fixed no more issues to look over
(In reply to comment #30) > Perhaps if you wanted people to help out with Gentoo, you > should consider not treating them like dirt. Ciaran, I sincerely want to thank you. I laughed long and hard at that one. It truly made my day.
Going back to Tim's requests, I attempted to co a new version of the devmanual SVN repo to get the new appendices files, but it quickly became obvious that it does not contain a full working version of the devmanual. (missing, among other things, the root /index.html page) I'll manually copy over the appendices files for now, but someone needs to fix this before we can do any more updates. I'm not going to manually copy every time someone fixes a typo.
or, if there is some sort of post co conversion that needs to be done, someone needs to clearly articulate the steps for doing that. As I mentioned earlier, infra has no prior knowledge of how this stuff is set up.
Yes, you type 'make' and watch the pretty messages scroll past. Easy enough? :)
We have it documented :) http://gentooexperimental.org/~genstef/devmanual/appendices/contributing/index.html
easy enough for me :) New stuff is up -- should properly credit everyone, including Tim and Mark.
Okay, then I'll take a turn at beating this dead horse. I, personally, am irritated that credit for my work on the devmanual has been buried in an appendix, and it's not the first time that my contribution to Gentoo docs has, not through malice but through carlessness, been lost, buried, or mislabeled. That bit of irritation won't stop me from contributing, but what if it did? Wouldn't that be a sad loss for something so easy to fix (see below for a fix)? I can't seem to locate a webcache of the original version of the devmanual, but it simply listed the contributors on the front page, essentially like every other document, book, or article that one comes across. Yes, it's true that it does take up a bit of web page real estate, but folks who don't care will skip past it easily enough. Giving people due credit is important. Doing so prominently encourages people to contribute. More importantly, it's just the right thing to do, and that ought to be enough of a reason. As for seemant's argument that conversion to standard guidexml would also solve this problem, and that the current version is temporary, I agree in principle, but I have a suspicion that "temporary" could still be a quite lengthy period of time because (1) the conversion is a considerable undertaking, and (2) I think spb and the qa folks would like to return devmanual to the original restructured text format and then process the restructured text directly to guidexml, which also won't be quick to implement (although thanks to the docs folks I believe the needed guidexml tags are now in place). Here's a patch that ought to make everybody happy until a proper guidexml version can be created (with a bit of tweaking, since for reasons that I don't understand running make on these sources leads to an index.html page w/ an empty <dd>): Index: text.xml =================================================================== --- text.xml (revision 83) +++ text.xml (working copy) @@ -10,12 +10,21 @@ intent is to make an handbook giving developers and users correct, detailed, up to date technical content. </p> +<dl> + <dt>Contributors</dt> + <dd> + Ciaran McCreesh, Grant Goodyear, Aaron Walker, Robert Coie, + Tom Martin, Paul Varner, Ilya Volynets-Evenbakh, + Diego Petten
Okay, then I'll take a turn at beating this dead horse. I, personally, am irritated that credit for my work on the devmanual has been buried in an appendix, and it's not the first time that my contribution to Gentoo docs has, not through malice but through carlessness, been lost, buried, or mislabeled. That bit of irritation won't stop me from contributing, but what if it did? Wouldn't that be a sad loss for something so easy to fix (see below for a fix)? I can't seem to locate a webcache of the original version of the devmanual, but it simply listed the contributors on the front page, essentially like every other document, book, or article that one comes across. Yes, it's true that it does take up a bit of web page real estate, but folks who don't care will skip past it easily enough. Giving people due credit is important. Doing so prominently encourages people to contribute. More importantly, it's just the right thing to do, and that ought to be enough of a reason. As for seemant's argument that conversion to standard guidexml would also solve this problem, and that the current version is temporary, I agree in principle, but I have a suspicion that "temporary" could still be a quite lengthy period of time because (1) the conversion is a considerable undertaking, and (2) I think spb and the qa folks would like to return devmanual to the original restructured text format and then process the restructured text directly to guidexml, which also won't be quick to implement (although thanks to the docs folks I believe the needed guidexml tags are now in place). Here's a patch that ought to make everybody happy until a proper guidexml version can be created (with a bit of tweaking, since for reasons that I don't understand running make on these sources leads to an index.html page w/ an empty <dd>): Index: text.xml =================================================================== --- text.xml (revision 83) +++ text.xml (working copy) @@ -10,12 +10,21 @@ intent is to make an handbook giving developers and users correct, detailed, up to date technical content. </p> +<dl> + <dt>Contributors</dt> + <dd> + Ciaran McCreesh, Grant Goodyear, Aaron Walker, Robert Coie, + Tom Martin, Paul Varner, Ilya Volynets-Evenbakh, + Diego Pettenò, Fernando J. Pereda, Simon Stelling, Alin Dobre, + Joseph Jezak, Tim Yamin, Mark Loeser + </dd> +</dl> <p> Contributions are encouraged. See the <uri link="::appendices/contributing"/> section for how to get started. If you have any corrections, suggestions or improvements please file a bug at <uri>http://bugs.gentoo.org</uri> and assign it to <c>qa@gentoo.org</c>. The <uri link="::appendices/contributors"/> -section lists contributors to this manual. +section lists specific contributions to this manual. </p> </body> Index: appendices/contributors/text.xml =================================================================== --- appendices/contributors/text.xml (revision 83) +++ appendices/contributors/text.xml (working copy) @@ -1,11 +1,11 @@ <?xml version="1.0"?> <guide self="appendices/contributors/"> <chapter> -<title>Contributors</title> +<title>Contributions</title> <body> <p> -This page lists contributors to the Gentoo Development Guide: +This page lists the contributions to the Gentoo Development Guide: </p> <authors>
If this will make everyone happy and finally let us put this stupid issue to bed, then I will gladly update the site with the new version. Will *everyone* be happy with Grant's patch?
Remember to spell my name right or I might be the next one complaining about it ;) No really, this starts to be the longer standing drama if we continue, whoever can finally close this question, please close it, we're making fools of ourselves.
(In reply to comment #39) > Will *everyone* be happy with Grant's patch? I will be, yes. (In reply to comment #40) > No really, this starts to be the longer standing drama if we continue Yes, getting the credits fixed should not have been this difficult.
(In reply to comment #38) > and it's not the first time that my contribution to Gentoo docs has, > not through malice but through carlessness, been lost, buried, or mislabeled. Grant, if you think that some parts of the "Gentoo documentation" (ie. stuff under w.g.o/doc/) are missing a proper credit, please file a bug and assign it to the docs-team@g.o. We'd be more than happy to fix it :). If you meant another "Gentoo documentation", could you please clarify?
(In reply to comment #42) > Grant, if you think that some parts of the "Gentoo documentation" (ie. stuff > under w.g.o/doc/) are missing a proper credit, please file a bug and assign it > to the docs-team@g.o. We'd be more than happy to fix it :). If you meant > another "Gentoo documentation", could you please clarify? Long ago, I fleshed out and wrote the guidexml for the original installation docs, much of which were incorporated into the handbook. I'm listed as a "Reviewer" for the handbook, instead of as an author (that's the "mislabeled"). I also wrote the Gentoo Desktop guide, which was eventually split apart into a number of more focused documents. By now it's safe to say that none of my original text is in any of the documents (except, perhaps, for the handbook), but that wasn't true when the desktop-based docs were created. It wasn't malicious, it was just a mistake, but it was still a tad irritating. In any event, my complaint was not about the GDP today, but about how historically Gentoo has not been careful enough in preserving credit for contributions, and my assertion that we want to be more careful in the future. My apologies to the current GDP team. I had not intended to paint you folks with the same brush.
Any progress?
In SVN; could someone from infra please update the HTML?
(In reply to comment #45) > In SVN; could someone from infra please update the HTML? Not just anyone from infra, but one who can su on warbler. I tried, I couldn't. Sorry. Try http://devmanual.gentoo.neysx.org/ :)
Progress? If those in infra with superpowers don't have time to do it themselves, perhaps they should reduce the restrictions...
(In reply to comment #47) > Progress? > > If those in infra with superpowers don't have time to do it themselves, perhaps > they should reduce the restrictions... > I'm still waiting on someone who knows how it generates the pages to send me the exact steps to update it outside of updating the svn.
(In reply to comment #48) > (In reply to comment #47) > > Progress? > > > > If those in infra with superpowers don't have time to do it themselves, perhaps > > they should reduce the restrictions... > > > > I'm still waiting on someone who knows how it generates the pages to send me > the exact steps to update it outside of updating the svn. > Also, I'm willing to allow up to two people service access to the pages so they can manage it.
(In reply to comment #48) > I'm still waiting on someone who knows how it generates the pages to send me > the exact steps to update it outside of updating the svn. You're expected to run `make` and upload the generated html & png files The web server could even sync the xml files off the repository and generate the html dynamically. The whole thing could even be under /proj/en/whatever/ on www.g.o provided a non-Gentoo look'n'feel on www.g.o is approved by the powers-that-must-not-be-named
(In reply to comment #49) > Also, I'm willing to allow up to two people service access to the pages so they > can manage it. Could be a useful thing to have. I would be inclined to suggest me from QA and Kugelfang from council, since those two bodies are its current effective maintainers and we seem to be the most active people so far in updating it. Any objections?
(In reply to comment #51) > (In reply to comment #49) > > Also, I'm willing to allow up to two people service access to the pages so they > > can manage it. > > Could be a useful thing to have. I would be inclined to suggest me from QA and > Kugelfang from council, since those two bodies are its current effective > maintainers and we seem to be the most active people so far in updating it. Any > objections? > None from me. If I don't get to it, someone from infra can add them to ldap for warbler, then add them into the gmanual group. I added gmanual to the cron group, but find me online to dicuss how to get it updating automatically. I would like for you to use a service account with read-only access to do it.
access set. working out automagic syncing and whatnot
I think this bug can be called fixed by now...
The bug has been referenced in the following commit(s): https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/devmanual.git/commit/?id=8ee0c9ecf48f52cd421ad7808f5fe9d97edaf5cd commit 8ee0c9ecf48f52cd421ad7808f5fe9d97edaf5cd Author: Ulrich Müller <ulm@gentoo.org> AuthorDate: 2021-07-03 09:09:06 +0000 Commit: Ulrich Müller <ulm@gentoo.org> CommitDate: 2021-07-12 18:28:25 +0000 Revert "Drop duplicate info about contributions" Having the list of contributors on the main page is what everybody (including the original authors) had agreed upon in bug 150231, comment #39 and following. Update the list of contributors from appendices/contributors. This reverts commit 68990c4329bc68b340627415e0c75e19035ad244. Bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/150231#39 Signed-off-by: Ulrich Müller <ulm@gentoo.org> text.xml | 14 ++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 14 insertions(+)
